How can I ID a used T'wolf blade? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 05-25-2014, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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How can I ID a used T'wolf blade?

Some time ago I re-sawed a board that resulted in severe cupping. I assumed the T'wolf 1/2x4 was dull, folded it up and hung it with 4 or 5 other blades, and replaced it with a new Bosch 1/2x4x93-1/2. I got similar results with the new blade. After some study and looking I realized the blades had been following the grain of the board, which had been "slab" cut. Perhaps the T'wolf was NOT at fault. Now I can't tell which of the used blades is the Timberwolf. Is there any way to tell?

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

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post #2 of 29 Old 05-25-2014, 07:32 PM
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Doc,
I don't know without looking at it, but the TW blades are run at a much lower tension than a normal blade. So if you mounted it on the saw, you might be able to tell by how much or how little tension it takes to get it running smooth.
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post #3 of 29 Old 05-25-2014, 08:37 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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look at the color

My T wolf blades are sorta copper colored, rather than dark brown or black and the teeth are darker than the body of the blade.

like this:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/100-...w-Blade/T25043




The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #4 of 29 Old 05-25-2014, 09:51 PM
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The cupped cut is most likely caused by improper tension or possibly force feeding the wood into the blade. There is also the possibility that the blade might be dull. Check the dust to see if it looks like fine powder and is much hotter than usual. If the blade is really dull, you might also see signs of the kerf wobbling. Seems like I recall that excessively high tension can lead to cupping, but I do not recall the reason why. You can usually tell by feel if the teeth are not sharp.

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post #5 of 29 Old 05-25-2014, 10:21 PM
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More Information

If you are not familiar with the Suffolk Machinery web site, it contains a wealth of information on bandsaw blades -- well worth reading.

There is one section titled Six Rules of Sawing. One of the things mentioned is, "a band that has an improper HOOK ANGLE and is UNDER SET will cut a bow across the board every time!"

Also, in the Troubleshooting Section, they say:
4. BLADE DROPS DOWN IN THE CUT plus when you pull the board off, you have a bow in the board. This is caused by too little hook angle and not enough set. Increase the hook angle by 2 degrees and increase the set by .003″ per side.
There is a lot more information on the web site about choosing a blade with the proper hook angle.

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post #6 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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Hey, Bill

"
4. BLADE DROPS DOWN IN THE CUT plus when you pull the board off, you have a bow in the board. This is caused by too little hook angle and not enough set. Increase the hook angle by 2 degrees and increase the set by .003″ per side.

.
.
How in the world would I go about doing that?

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #7 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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tyvm woodnthings

I looked through all my blades and found 1 that has darker teeth and some copper coloring. It looked like it had been sawing asphalt. The rest are all the same. I believe I have found my T'wolf blade and will clean it, re-install, adjust it by the "flutter" method, and go from there. TNX to all.

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durdyolman View Post
.
.
How in the world would I go about doing that?
When they say "change the hook angle" what they really mean is that you buy a new blade with a different hook angle and then change it out with the other blade on the saw. Changing the hook angle isn't something that you would be able to do yourself (unless you were very very very good with a file and had a lot of patience and time on your hands and the results still wouldn't be very good.

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post #9 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 04:43 PM
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Not DIY...

Quote:
Originally Posted by durdyolman View Post
"
4. BLADE DROPS DOWN IN THE CUT – plus when you pull the board off, you have a bow in the board. This is caused by too little hook angle and not enough set. Increase the hook angle by 2 degrees and increase the set by .003″ per side.

.
.
How in the world would I go about doing that?
Probably not doable at home. You may be able to slightly change the hook angle, but as far as the set goes that would require a specialized tool. A brass block with a recess and a good eye with a brass punch might do it, but just think how many teeth there are...... Then twist the blade over and do the other side. It's possible depending on your patience.

I sharpened a bandsaw blade or two just to see how it would work and how difficult it would be:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/b...ing-diy-10872/


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-26-2014 at 04:50 PM.
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post #10 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Got the T'wolf blade cleaned up, installed and flutter tuned, and tried resawing a scrap piece of maple. Turned out pretty good. Next will be the 6" Jatoba..............Guess we'll see, huh?

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #11 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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Addendum

After adjusting the "flutter" tension on the T'wolf blade, I saw the tension indicator on the back of my Delta 14" BS was at " 3/4 ". So much for indicators, huh?

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #12 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Probably not doable at home. You may be able to slightly change the hook angle, but as far as the set goes that would require a specialized tool. A brass block with a recess and a good eye with a brass punch might do it, but just think how many teeth there are...... Then twist the blade over and do the other side. It's possible depending on your patience.

I sharpened a bandsaw blade or two just to see how it would work and how difficult it would be:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/b...ing-diy-10872/

Sharpening a Bandsaw Blade - YouTube
When I first saw your post, I said to myself, "This I gotta see!". You proved your point 10x over. I use T-wolf blades, but the thought of sharpening them never crossed my mind. I cannot wait to try this on my Tormek.

Thank you very much for posting your video.
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post #13 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
.... I sharpened a bandsaw blade or two just to see how it would work and how difficult it would be:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/b...ing-diy-10872/

Sharpening a Bandsaw Blade - YouTube
Informative video, but please get a a tripod. I almost got seasick from the camera swinging around like it was on a bungee cord.

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post #14 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 03:36 PM
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eeesss not my videoo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Boehme View Post
Informative video, but please get a a tripod. I almost got seasick from the camera swinging around like it was on a bungee cord.
I am only posting the link, that's all I can be responsible for....

It was a bit tedious to watch, I agree.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #15 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 03:48 PM
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Fascinating video there. If you had the ability to see a greatly magnified image of the tip before and after running through your bench grinder, it would be even more fascinating.


I realize that not everyone has a stereo microscope with image collection ability, however.


I work in the sawblade manufacturing industry (meat cutting blades, mostly). I can think of a few things that are happening when you grind the back edge of the teeth as shown in the video.


I would love to see an up-close set of before and after photos of the teeth. If you are willing, I can arrange for that to be done (free of charge).


The first will be that you effectively decrease the set of the teeth. That will make the blade cut more easily. Depending on the angle that the teeth were initially set, our set-up guys use a rule of thumb of 3:1. That is, if you reduce the tip-to-gullet height by 0.006", you will reduce the set (per side) by 0.002". That would be a net decrease in the kerf by 0.004" for every 0.006" removed from the tip height.


Another feature that would be interesting to see under a microscope is whether or not you are removing the "hammer marks" on the back edge of the blade. When bandsaw blade teeth are set, they are hit by pairs of carbide "hammers" which push the teeth to one side or the other. By necessity, these hammers leave marks on the backs of the teeth. Your grinding may be removing that portion of the teeth which are affected by the setting hammers.


Still another feature is that on out-of-the-box blades, there is normally some "twist" on the cutting face which is associated with the setting operation. The cutting faces of the teeth, especially near the tips, are not perfectly square to the sides of the blade. Your grinding may be removing enough of the tip so that the face is effectively "squared up" with the sides of the blade, allowing it to cut faster.


In any event, if you send me a PM, I'd be happy to take a look and share some photos of before and after conditions of your blades. I'll pick up the UPS charges, just for the purpose of learning what's going on with your sharpening technique.


Thanks for sharing,


Steve.
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post #16 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Boehme View Post
Informative video, but please get a a tripod. I almost got seasick from the camera swinging around like it was on a bungee cord.
Wazza matta you? Sumtimes all we can do is beecha, beecha, beecha!!

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #17 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Our, your, my Lord, be praised for a minimal kerf in my ham bone.

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #18 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durdyolman View Post
Wazza matta you? Sumtimes all we can do is beecha, beecha, beecha!!
The silver lining is while hanging over the rail seasick, I've been chumming for fish.

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post #19 of 29 Old 05-28-2014, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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This might be funny to some folks

Years ago I worked at a stainless steel fab shop. There was a really HUGE band saw, using 1" to 1-1/4" blades about 12' long. The blades came in rolls we pulled out to marks on the floor, cut them to length, and welded/ground/annealed them on the saw's own welder. When the roll had only a few feet left, we welded the remaining piece to the next roll and carried on, with a 2 piece blade.
...I went to the saw to make a cut, the saw cut some, made noises, cut some, made noises. I looked at the blade someone had installed backwards. I took the blade off, turned it inside out, replaced it, and got the same results. Looked at the blade, the teeth were pointing up, am I going crazy, I know I just turned it around. Discovered some moron had welded 2 short pieces with the teeth going in different directions. Could it be, this moron was just messing with my mind, hiding, watching me scratch my head?
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.
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, (as I posted earlier) I found my T'wolf blade, cleaned, installed, "flutter" adjusted it and found the tension indicator at 3/4". Could this be caused by the length of the blades varying some? If so, it renders the indicator useless, so how can I properly adjust my "other" blades?
.
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Punctuation and typos are important:
.
"What's that up in the road ahead?"
.
"What's that up in the road, a head?"
.
.

The worst thing you can do to a piece of wood is
....get blood on it.

Dr. Durdy Olman, Phd. (BS)
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post #20 of 29 Old 05-28-2014, 10:36 AM
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A bandsaw tension gage (Starret's term) is the best way, but they are too expensive for most non-commercial entities to use.


http://www.starrett.com/saws/saws-ha...w-tension-gage


These gages work on the principle that the stress-strain constant (Young's Modulus) is a fixed value for all steels. They work amazingly well for that purpose.


Depending on the design of your saw, (whether the indicator shows pre-load on a spring, or absolute position of the upper wheel), you might not have many options in terms of comparing pre-load of one blade versus another.


Blade lengths from vendor to vendor can vary, based on the individual tooth pitch (distance from tip to tip). Even though they may all nominally be 3 TPI, they may all not measure exactly 0.333333333333" from tip to tip. Even small variations add up over a typical bandsaw blade's length.


Those T-Wolf blades are probably hard-back as well (hardened and tempered to the high 40's, low 50's Rc in the body of the blade). Many woodworking blades are flex-back (30's Rc on the body of the blade). Hard back material should have a tensile strength of over 200 Ksi, whereas flex-back is more like 130 Ksi. A hard-back blade "likes" more tension than a flex-back blade.


Steve
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