frustrated... budget, tools, quality of jigs.. advice? - Page 5 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #81 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:27 AM
Senior Member
 
BernieL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Greenville NH
Posts: 1,396
View BernieL's Photo Album My Photos
I like everyone here and I'm sad we are name calling - outright or suggestive.

Breath everyone and listen (read) Jousley's last post. He gets' the message from all of us who are too busy blowing our own horns and throwing out names. I don't like to be accused of being stupid because some folks think I'm wasting my hard earned money on more expensive tools. And many posts ago I used the term "Crapsmen" and was put in my place for doing so... I did apologize...

We all like our woodworking and we all have our personal reasons for buying the tools we own. When a poster like Jousley ask our opinions on purchasing tools, we need to give our nonjudgmental opinions. To accomplish this, we simply need to explain how we came about our decisions.
Let's keep name brands out and be mindful of each other. I know what it's like to buy tools on a budget... I've been there and because I choose not to remain there... don't tell me I'm wasting my hard earned money on expensive tools. I made up my mind to buy quality because I can do that now. I explained how I did that and suggested the options I chose.

Now lets get back to our woodworking and

Its' never hot or cold in New Hampshire... its' always seasonal.
BernieL is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BernieL For This Useful Post:
CaptainMarvel (12-06-2013), MattS (12-06-2013), trc65 (12-06-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #82 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:44 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 15
View Alan Wright's Photo Album My Photos
Amen!

BernieL, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Alan Wright is offline  
post #83 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 02:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Noek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Orange County, Ca
Posts: 269
View Noek's Photo Album My Photos
It's pretty normal where I live to drive through an apartment complex parking lot and see new Mercedes, bmws, lifted trucks, etc. Most of these people will complain that they don't own a house because they can't afford it.
Noek is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #84 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Texas
Posts: 213
View TylerJones's Photo Album My Photos
Man that really escalated quickly...
TylerJones is offline  
post #85 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 03:47 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan50hrl

So your basing your thought on things you haven't experienced in 25 years? My craftsman table saw has a true 1.75 hp 15 amp motor.....not under powered at all for what it is. And it has a solid granite top.....and a bisermeyer clone fence. Throat plate sits in a machined granite surface....guessing that's not warping.

If you want to talk about old underpowered saws, everyone's made them....including some old unisaws.
Im guessing the granite will always be in tune with the saw that's not attached to? But hey, it won't rust.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #86 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 04:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 185
View MattS's Photo Album My Photos
I'm way late to this thread - and almost everything has already been said. I'll offer one additional observation, one that is often missed in any industry. You can use a poor quality/brand tool, apply a lot of care and time, and result in a positive outcome. If you own a higher quality tool (not a more expensive one, per se), the amount of time required to carefully tune/measure/double check your tools will be reduced.

If you are tight on cash, but have time on your hands, the math is simple. Take your time and do a good job with what you have! Invest the effort to craft things you will be proud of. Don't let anyone bully you into spending a bunch of money on tools when common sense and wisdom dictate that you take a more financially responsible path.

I've gotten into it with Al before, and I feel bad even derailing this thread a little bit more - but not everyone has another $4 per day or $100 per month to make payments on anything, period. I've sure been there, I have friends who are there now, and I don't push my friends/family to go buy tools. If you don't have a friend or family member nearby that has the tools, the smart approach to this is finding a local Makers/Tinkerers alliance and using their resources if you really find yourself lacking an important tool.

If you lived in Cleveland I'd be glad to have you over to make cuts on my tools - they aren't perfect, but I do like to share what I've got. Good luck!
MattS is offline  
post #87 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 620
View jigs-n-fixtures's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camden
Pick up broken furniture from the free section on Craigslist and fix it. Why? Because you can. Leave the press board garbage for the waste management company, but anything that is made of real wood should come home with you. If you can't fix it, break it down into it's component parts and repurpose them. Salvage all hardware(even ****ty hardware) for a rainy day. Why?
The other thing about repairing/restoring broken furniture is that if it is quality work, you start to understand how things are put together, and style details that are hard to learn from books.

When I was starting out and truly poor, counting pennies poor, I used to go buy furniture from the Salvation Army that was high quality stuff, but needed refinished/repaired. I learned a lot about furniture construction by disassembling well built things, and making replacement parts.

I started woodworking with a drill, some bits, a skillsaw, a speed square, and a straight cut jig I made out of scrap plywood left over from a bunk bed I made, and a run of aluminum channel.

The early stuff was purely utilitarian. But solidly done and jointed. I still have the bunk bed. That was thirty years ago.

I bought the best tools I could afford, as I needed them.

The secret is read books on laying out your work. Learn to true up the lay out tools, and then measure, measure twice and be careful about your layout before you cut.

I'm always amazed when I see things like router table fences with mechanisms designed to keep the fence parallel to the table edge. The only thing that matters is the cut, which is controlled by the offset from the center of bit, and the bit height. There is no need for it to be parallel to anything.

And, miter slots in a router table top are also a pet peeve. Build a sled that guides off the fence. All the miter slot is doing is creating a place for things to catch. It is more of a safety hazard than a help.
jigs-n-fixtures is offline  
post #88 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 04:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 620
View jigs-n-fixtures's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan50hrl

Couldn't agree more......some excellent work can be created with junky tools......that said....its going to take twice the effort (ie measuring and test cutting) to get "perfect" results.

While we're on the "perfect" topic.....its one of my pet peeves.....there is no such thing as perfect results. There are results that are within your tolerance....Lets try it this way.....

Width of your yard when its surveyed....an inch is probably the standard (or maybe half an inch)...
..
One part in ten thousand, or approximately an eighth of an inch in a hundred feet as a minimum. High value properties require tighter tolerances.
jigs-n-fixtures is offline  
post #89 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 05:59 PM
Sawdust Creator
 
ryan50hrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,047
View ryan50hrl's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigs-n-fixtures
One part in ten thousand, or approximately an eighth of an inch in a hundred feet as a minimum. High value properties require tighter tolerances.
Fair enough....I'm not in high value areas. Here in the Midwest were not that close.

The tools don't make the craftsman....
ryan50hrl is offline  
post #90 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 06:38 PM
Senior Member
 
tonycan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 310
View tonycan's Photo Album My Photos
Bernie L , 100% right. Find fault with the comment not the commenter. When I leave this world my daughters will be selling all my tools for as much as possible and they don't give a rats a$$ who made them.

If it doesn't feel safe, it probably isn't.
tonycan is offline  
post #91 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 10:42 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Bledsoe

Ah, see, there's the problem. The tool has to say "Craftsman" in order to be good, much like the tools you're suggesting have to have certain names on them. After reading all those other posts you made I would have thought you'd have known that. Glad I cleared that up for you. You're right though, I'm already being a great help in a thread concerning Crapsman tools. Buy better stuff and that won't happen to you anymore.
I have no idea why you posted this to me. I don't have a problem with any of my tools. I do try to help the guys that have purchased a Crapsman. After the fact its just time to roll up the sleeves and get to fixing the tool. Didn't see your help in the table saw thread.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #92 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 10:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Duane Bledsoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Posts: 570
View Duane Bledsoe's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B Thayer View Post
I have no idea why you posted this to me. I don't have a problem with any of my tools. I do try to help the guys that have purchased a Crapsman. After the fact its just time to roll up the sleeves and get to fixing the tool. Didn't see your help in the table saw thread.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.
Much like you missed the point of inexpensive tools on a limited budget, you have missed the point of my sarcasm as well.

Furthermore, just so we're all clear, I would have never said anything at all to you about this had you not first quoted my fairly long post to the OP in its entirety, only to say some snide remark about what I was just offering as the benefit of my experience. You can disagree with me all you like but if you're going to be smart aleck about it, expect to get it back.

Last edited by Duane Bledsoe; 12-06-2013 at 10:54 PM.
Duane Bledsoe is offline  
post #93 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Duane Bledsoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Posts: 570
View Duane Bledsoe's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noek View Post
It's pretty normal where I live to drive through an apartment complex parking lot and see new Mercedes, bmws, lifted trucks, etc. Most of these people will complain that they don't own a house because they can't afford it.
That is pretty common here also. Many of these people are spending most of what they make on stuff like this and doing without in other areas where the money may be really needed. They'll drive expensive cars and talk on iPhones but live in ratty rental property and let their kids wear second hand yard sale clothes. To me this just shows that a lot of people make poor decisions with their spending habits. This does not prove that people can have expensive things if they want them on any budget and still do fine in all other areas, as has been suggested in this thread.

I think most anyone can get what they want if they want it bad enough. They'll find a way. But the question is at what cost, and also if it's even a good idea or not with their current financial status? All I'm saying is it's not necessary at all to spend a lot of money for the best of the best in tools. When someone talks about a tool purchase only costing an additional $100 per month on a payment plan and says anyone can do it, they're out of touch with most people's level of living.

Last edited by Duane Bledsoe; 12-06-2013 at 11:12 PM.
Duane Bledsoe is offline  
post #94 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:22 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan50hrl

I've been doing this about ten years....

Who's saying to buy cheap tools? I haven't. But you seem to think anything without a premium brand is junk.

My 150 dollar craftsman router had not once made me wish I had spent more. My craftsman pro 22116 table saw had been everything I could ask for of a 1000 dollar table saw......not a single complaint on it. Now I've spent more on a planer as I didn't feel the craftsman one would do what I wanted it to do....I've got dewalt 18v stuff as I felt it was better quality.

My point is....saying one particular brand or store only sells junk that can't do quality work is either ignorant or purposely belligerent. Have you used a current model craftsman pro router?
I'm sure I didn't tell anyone which tools to buy. Your reading a lot into my posts young man and I haven't responded due to my understanding your just being emotional about my clothing store line. Your response is based on anecdotal observations and the fact that you own one. Reviews and tests might say otherwise.

My post on the subject is to inspire and raise the bar to the level some dream of but lack the mind set to achieve. $4 a day. If you cant afford that? Dont buy anything.

I bought my quality tools when I was on a budget and had a little shop in a garage and a half. Almost anyone can do it. Please try to not hold back those that want to achieve that dream. Others have posted in this thread the same as I did without the funny line about the clothing store. Which I will change to something like, granite top? Are you in the kitchen section? And I'm sure you have a great tool but when most go to Sears they don't walk out with a saw that cuts well and can serve cheese and crackers. :) They buy the other 99% of the tools sold there like their planer. Unknowing the problems they are going to have when they put down their Fine Woodworking magazine.

Keep in mind that the tools you have in your person are not all the tools sold at the clothing store. Many of them really will lead to pain and heart ache. Did I mention the great Rigid router I have? :)

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #95 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:40 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Bledsoe

Much like you missed the point of inexpensive tools on a limited budget, you have missed the point of my sarcasm as well.

Furthermore, just so we're all clear, I would have never said anything at all to you about this had you not first quoted my fairly long post to the OP in its entirety, only to say some snide remark about what I was just offering as the benefit of my experience. You can disagree with me all you like but if you're going to be smart aleck about it, expect to get it back.
Is that a Crapsman chip on your sholder? It's one thing to say, VALUE. And another to say Crapsman is a great tool. Reviews would say otherwise. Maybe reviews would not call them Crapsman, but they certainly do not call them great. Best off when responding to a beginner with blanket statements pontificating the greatness of a value tool. You would also concede that the whole line isn't great at all. And in fact you too know of some Crapsman tools not fit for life outside of the clothing store.

The clothing store line is in fun and jest. Don't be such a Buzzkillington.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #96 of 105 Old 12-06-2013, 11:47 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Bledsoe

That is pretty common here also. Many of these people are spending most of what they make on stuff like this and doing without in other areas where the money may be really needed. They'll drive expensive cars and talk on iPhones but live in ratty rental property and let their kids wear second hand yard sale clothes. To me this just shows that a lot of people make poor decisions with their spending habits. This does not prove that people can have expensive things if they want them on any budget and still do fine in all other areas, as has been suggested in this thread.

I think most anyone can get what they want if they want it bad enough. They'll find a way. But the question is at what cost, and also if it's even a good idea or not with their current financial status? All I'm saying is it's not necessary at all to spend a lot of money for the best of the best in tools. When someone talks about a tool purchase only costing an additional $100 per month on a payment plan and says anyone can do it, they're out of touch with most people's level of living.
Oh my word. You really are reading so much into my post. I'm talking about people who are doing woodworking and love the craft. Not the general population. Heaven forbid we start talking about buying hardwood. $$$$$$ Or do you just bust up free pallets and build toy boxes?

Get off my back. Even the pour can find $4.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #97 of 105 Old 12-07-2013, 12:05 AM
Sawdust Creator
 
ryan50hrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,047
View ryan50hrl's Photo Album My Photos
Nevermind al, you and I are going to disagree on this. We aren't going to get anywhere. I'm out....

The tools don't make the craftsman....
ryan50hrl is offline  
post #98 of 105 Old 12-07-2013, 12:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Duane Bledsoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Posts: 570
View Duane Bledsoe's Photo Album My Photos
If you're talking about $4 per day, as I read somewhere else in this thread, no they cannot. Stop saying it, it's starting to sound silly. It sounded silly the first time it was said. A lot of people doing woodworking and loving the craft ARE the general population. Who do you think the OP is? Who do you think I am? I love it but I absolutely cannot spare another $100 per month, or even $75 per month to purchase non essentials. I'd feel even $50 per month if it were a constant payment over a long period. But I'm not going to quit woodworking, or wait until I can someday afford that $100 payment either. Occasionally I'll be able to spare $100 in a single pop and then I'll add something to what I need to have extra abilities in the shop. That's how the general population does it. I could save that $100, and add to it, and in two years I'd have enough to buy a super nice router, or I can have a $100 Craftsman now and be active in the hobby. How can you not get that?

But anyway, if I've offended you I apologize. I got carried away with my rebuttal comments and went too far with the sarcasm. But my points have been made and now I'm done.

Last edited by Duane Bledsoe; 12-07-2013 at 12:16 AM.
Duane Bledsoe is offline  
post #99 of 105 Old 12-07-2013, 01:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Noek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Orange County, Ca
Posts: 269
View Noek's Photo Album My Photos
Duane, hoping I didn't sound like a jerk when I posted that, I was just generalizing about how people prioritize their monetary spending, and that was probably wrong of me. My analogy was probably not very accurate.

A previous poster stated something to the effect that skipping that coffee every morning, or that pack of cigarettes frees up available cash for purchasing better tools. Making this sacrifice makes sense to me.

On a personal level, I always try to buy the best tools I can. I have tools that are way better than I am. I like it that way. At least when I screw up, I know it's me and not my tools :)
Noek is offline  
post #100 of 105 Old 12-07-2013, 10:12 AM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noek
Duane, hoping I didn't sound like a jerk when I posted that, I was just generalizing about how people prioritize their monetary spending, and that was probably wrong of me. My analogy was probably not very accurate.

A previous poster stated something to the effect that skipping that coffee every morning, or that pack of cigarettes frees up available cash for purchasing better tools. Making this sacrifice makes sense to me.

On a personal level, I always try to buy the best tools I can. I have tools that are way better than I am. I like it that way. At least when I screw up, I know it's me and not my tools :)
I couldn't agree with you more. The methods I have posted are not for everyone, but they could be. Thats something to really take note of instead of making excuses and for what ever reason, and setting the bar too low. I have grown fond of Bernie for his accomplishments and good solid posts and admire anyone that can see the value in making sacrifices that promote good choices.

Quality tools rock.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


Al B Thayer is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality of Grizzley Tools Roundup85 General Woodworking Discussion 18 12-26-2012 10:17 AM
tv or youtube advertized tools and or jigs? catfishcarpenter Tool Reviews 0 11-24-2011 10:00 PM
Quality tools ?? lawrence General Woodworking Discussion 4 03-25-2011 09:44 PM
Quality Machinery and tools NJ 813NJTom813 General Woodworking Discussion 5 05-26-2009 08:23 AM
High Quality Plywood for Jigs? Capt Crutch Tips, Tricks, & Homemade Jigs 5 03-13-2008 08:37 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome