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post #1 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Flooring question

This will probably be a moot point since i likely cant afford it anyway, but i wanted to see what the option would be.



A little while back i had to rent a big grinding machine to get all the old, dried, black tile adhesive off the basement floor (since nothing else was working.) It got most of it off, but i ended up have to reseal the concrete floor. - Some chemical usage i was not intisapating at the time.










The floor looks mostly the same now as in this pic. But since im making a room for my pets down there; even dried, im concerned about the chemicals in the floor. (I cant say it was the most professional application of sealant ever.)


So i was thinking about just throwing some cheep vynal or laminate floor over it before i build the frame work for the room. I dont need a perfect or professional install of it. Just something that if the animals get out of the cages, there not standing on the chemical floor.



What im wondering about is any risks or problems of doing that with those types of cheap flooring. The floor is resealed, so there shouldnt be any water coming in. (And there hasnt been any water through the floor in the last year that i lived here anyway). But maybe a condensation issue? Or something else im simply not thinking of, or know of? There should be two dehumidifiers running down there. One in the new room, and one in the other section of the basement.
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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fyi; im goign to be building a room in a room. So the new room walls are a foot or so in from the cinder block walls of the basement. The other side of the basement has some water seepage issues. Small, but its there. And its something i cant deal with right now. So one day, after i am able to take care of that properly, Ill be taking this new room down, and doing it against the walls correctly. So a floor piece could come up then if need be.


-----


I did something similar years back but on a wall. Since it wasnt my place. But my girls at the time were in a habit of peeing on the wall. So i took a large laminate sheet and spreed it across the wall. So no pee damage to the wall, and easy to clean. (That was the option they agreed to; wasnt my place.)




And it worked, as you can see. I only attached it at the top and bottom with pieces of poplar. Thats all the held it up, so no big issue when it was time to take it down. But it worked for what we wanted it to. - That similar to what im thinking of for the floor. (Altho im not drilling into the floor for this)

Last edited by wolfgang953; 12-09-2018 at 02:25 PM.
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 03:09 PM
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It is not clear to me what you are asking about that "probably cannot afford anyway."


What kind of pets?



George

'"
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post #4 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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if there is any risk or problems with just throwing a cheap vinyl or laminate or such slap of flooring directly over the concrete floor in the basement. - without anything underneath it and without gluing or attaching the whole thing down.


The floor has been resealed. And im just considering something to cover it for a while. Im not sure if there could be a mold issue that would develop from doing that, or something else entirely.
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post #5 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 04:17 PM
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What sealant did you use on the floor? The only risk of the vinyl would be adhesion. Without knowing what is there it's difficult to say. There should be an issue with mold.

Another option maybe would be to paint the floor. HD has Glidden Porch and Floor enamel for $25 a gallon. A gallon of it would cover about 325 sq. ft. which would be about eight cents a square foot. It's still unknown if there would be an adhesion problem with the sealer. Also it might smell like paint for a month or so.
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post #6 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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What sealant did you use on the floor? The only risk of the vinyl would be adhesion. Without knowing what is there it's difficult to say.
i believe this was the product i used.
https://www.emisupply.com/catalog/eu...l#.XA15cDF7kdU
I was considering just getting the floor piece large enough to fit under the 2x4 frame that ill be making. Let the weight of the frame hold it down with out having to attach or glue it to the floor. (One day i have to take the room down and redo it anyway. So i could remove the flooring piece then if needed.)






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There should be an issue with mold.
So you think there would be an issue with mold or mildew?

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Another option maybe would be to paint the floor. HD has Glidden Porch and Floor enamel for $25 a gallon. A gallon of it would cover about 325 sq. ft. which would be about eight cents a square foot. It's still unknown if there would be an adhesion problem with the sealer. Also it might smell like paint for a month or so.
Unfortunately i dont have the time to wait another month for it to air out. Already waited a very long time on the sealant coats. That was some strong vapors coming off that stuff. - But the animals going down there have more shallow respiratory systems then normal pets. They dont do well with scents/vapors.
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post #7 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 04:52 PM
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i believe this was the product i used.
https://www.emisupply.com/catalog/eu...l#.XA15cDF7kdU
I was considering just getting the floor piece large enough to fit under the 2x4 frame that ill be making. Let the weight of the frame hold it down with out having to attach or glue it to the floor. (One day i have to take the room down and redo it anyway. So i could remove the flooring piece then if needed.)







So you think there would be an issue with mold or mildew?


Unfortunately i dont have the time to wait another month for it to air out. Already waited a very long time on the sealant coats. That was some strong vapors coming off that stuff. - But the animals going down there have more shallow respiratory systems then normal pets. They dont do well with scents/vapors.
That sealant is like a polyurethane varnish. It could be used just like it is. If you wish a vinyl floor adhesive should adhere to it alright so you could do that. The sealant is also made to where it can be tinted. You could have had color added to it and been done with the floor. Unfortunately to go back over it with more sealant would be another month of fumes like before.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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That sealant is like a polyurethane varnish. It could be used just like it is. If you wish a vinyl floor adhesive should adhere to it alright so you could do that. The sealant is also made to where it can be tinted. You could have had color added to it and been done with the floor. Unfortunately to go back over it with more sealant would be another month of fumes like before.

im not looking to add more sealant. I had to use a grinding/sanding machine to get rid of old adhesive. It left the floor looking this this:




I already used the sealant in that link. Which i did tint with a grayish color. (Altho the amount of coloring they told me to use was waaaaay off.) But now the floor looks like this:




So the tinted sealant is already on the floor and dried out.

What im thinking about is just grabbing a large sheet of cheap flooring and laying it on top of this. Weighing down the edges so it doesn't go anywhere. And leaving it like that. NO glue or adhesive or anything.


Something like this:

(this is a scrap piece i had left over. But its the same thing. The actual one would have to be much bigger.)







Would there be any risk of laying out something like that across the floor? (Mold, mildew or anything) There shouldn't be any water coming thing through the floor. But condensation develop between the concrete and the underside of a flooring like that^?

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post #9 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 09:39 PM
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There wouldn't be any issue with mold laying the vinyl sheet over the floor. I think the only issue would be catching your feet on the flooring and tripping if it wasn't glued down. It might be better to just use peal and press floor tile. Other than appearance the floor doesn't need to be covered with anything.
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-09-2018, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thats good to hear.



The room section is somewhere around 23' x 17' Iir, the floor type materiel in my above pic comes form the store around 10ft~ wide and however long you want it. I have to go in store and find it to check. Im not finding what im looking for on there websites. But i should be able to cover the floor with just two pieces. So there should only be one line where they connect that would be an issue for tripping on if not secured. Maybe i could put a small amount of glue (or what every they use) just on that one line for saftey's sake.
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post #11 of 21 Old 12-10-2018, 06:14 AM
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What about the water leak? You say it's not very much of a leak. Have you lived in the house long enough to know if the leak is not very big? If water gets between whatever you put down on the floor you could have mold and you know that is bad. I would not be concerned about chemicals if the floor has dried and cured. A lot of finish that we put on wood is food safe after it has dried and cured. You never did say what kind of pets you have. If it was me I would fix the water leak first and do everything else later.

Don in Murfreesboro, TN.
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post #12 of 21 Old 12-10-2018, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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What about the water leak? You say it's not very much of a leak. Have you lived in the house long enough to know if the leak is not very big? If water gets between whatever you put down on the floor you could have mold and you know that is bad. I would not be concerned about chemicals if the floor has dried and cured. A lot of finish that we put on wood is food safe after it has dried and cured. You never did say what kind of pets you have. If it was me I would fix the water leak first and do everything else later.

Iv had a number of threads on here over the last few months. I lose track of what iv mentioned in one thread but not another some times. And my questions tend to end up long enough on there own so i try to avoid the life story of the building when i can.


The water leak is on the other side of the basement. And usually only when theres heavy amounts of rain. It seeps in some. Not big flood or anything. Just small puddles. and only within a foot or so of the wall. Most of which drains on the slanted floor to the sump pump right next to it. But this room is on the other side of the basement. Theres no leaks over on that side. - Been here a little over a year.


For long convoluted reasons, of which ill spare the details, i can not take care of that issue right now. But i must get the room made or risk losing the house. Which is why im making the room in a room; with the walls a foot or so in from the cinder block walls of the basement. One day, when im able to fix the water issue properly, then i will take this room down and do it properly against the cinder block walls. But until then, i have to make do with what i have and can do.


When i finish figuring out the last few details im aware of, ill make a video showing and explaining everything. Ppl can critic it there and i can see if i missed anything.
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post #13 of 21 Old 12-10-2018, 02:03 PM
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they make sub-terrain flooring products now in almost every form, ask for one of those.
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post #14 of 21 Old 12-11-2018, 01:07 PM
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I am not a big fan of segregating pets from family spaces.

If you are worried about fumes or odors, then roll out some shellac. It will effectively seal off any fuming.

Here's what happened when a guy locks his dog in the garage:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-Martin.html
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post #15 of 21 Old 12-11-2018, 01:53 PM
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I don't remember who makes it, but there is a vinyl floating floor product that comes in strips about 12" wide x 4' long. it uses a lap joint. You lay it down, peel a plastic strip off and then lay the next one using a staggered seam until the floor is done... kinda like a laminate vinyl floor. I think I purchased mine from Lowes and used it in a basement bathroom and it worked just fine.

Gary
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post #16 of 21 Old 12-11-2018, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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I am not a big fan of segregating pets from family spaces.

If you are worried about fumes or odors, then roll out some shellac. It will effectively seal off any fuming.

Here's what happened when a guy locks his dog in the garage:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-Martin.html

if i had a dog, then i would agree. But i have chinchillas and mice. Which are quite different.



Right now i have 8 chinchillas (used to have more) in a bedroom. And that bedroom is very full. I also need that bedroom cleared out. But chins dont do well in stressful environments. They are also crepuscular. (Most active at dusk and dawn. So they are often asleep during the main day) So being in a secluded and quite area is fine for them. They also must be kept in a cool area since temps at 73-75f+ can be fatal. So overall being in a basement thats secluded, quiet and naturally cooler are all good things for them.


The mice on the other hand just take up so much room. Many are very skittish when a person is around and will run for cover. So the seclusion is again nice for them. But i have 20some mice atm. They were put down in the basement when i moved in. But they had to be removed when i had to use the grinder on the floor to get the adheasive off. I also had to paint, So it seemed to be a good idea to take them out o the basement. (Later i found out i had to reseal the concrete floor. By the time i was done applying that, i couldnt even walk into the room, the fumes were so bad. So it was a damn good thing the mice wernt down there.) - But now... my living room is full of 12 different aquarium cages. And it takes up a lot of room.
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post #17 of 21 Old 12-11-2018, 05:46 PM
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if i had a dog, then i would agree. But i have chinchillas and mice. Which are quite different.



Right now i have 8 chinchillas (used to have more) in a bedroom. And that bedroom is very full. I also need that bedroom cleared out. But chins dont do well in stressful environments. They are also crepuscular. (Most active at dusk and dawn. So they are often asleep during the main day) So being in a secluded and quite area is fine for them. They also must be kept in a cool area since temps at 73-75f+ can be fatal. So overall being in a basement thats secluded, quiet and naturally cooler are all good things for them.


The mice on the other hand just take up so much room. Many are very skittish when a person is around and will run for cover. So the seclusion is again nice for them. But i have 20some mice atm. They were put down in the basement when i moved in. But they had to be removed when i had to use the grinder on the floor to get the adheasive off. I also had to paint, So it seemed to be a good idea to take them out o the basement. (Later i found out i had to reseal the concrete floor. By the time i was done applying that, i couldnt even walk into the room, the fumes were so bad. So it was a damn good thing the mice wernt down there.) - But now... my living room is full of 12 different aquarium cages. And it takes up a lot of room.
Then your Aston Martin is probably safe.

Shellac is a great odor sealer. I built a sleeping crate for my dog. I finished it with oil based poly and let it cure for 2 weeks. He sniffed it and would not step in.

I tried this for a week, then I sprayed the entire thing with shellac and that night he walked in perfectly content.
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post #18 of 21 Old 12-14-2018, 12:25 AM
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Hello Wolfgang,

I'm not sure why I got an update for your post, but I did today? I took some time and scanned several of you post topics which seem to center on creating a room (?) for you pets.

I can only validate that I have worked in several animal and biology related professions (C.V. is online if interested) and now design and build architecture for a living. To further offer assistance that may be germane, I have a respectful background in the husbandry practices of several Roditia genera including Chinchilla.

I am not sure whether you are intending a husbandry program for your animals or just maintenance of pet Chinchilla? I am also not certain if your quesitons here on this forum have been well understood by readers here? Much of the advice thus far given seems to have been more about "construction opinions" and not often well founded in fact and/or completely lacking in understanding of these animals requirements in captivity...

Finishes and sealers of most commercial application in domestic used from a home center can very well "out gas" to a degree that will effect these animals health, especially if fresh and/or in a confined new built space like a basement. Urethane, Polys and OPC floor sealers are a definite...NO WAY and NEVER...category.

As too insulation modalities asked about on another post, I did not see enough information about design to really do well by giving advice. I can state again, that these animals can be very sensitive to construction materials and particulate matter in the air of confined space, as well as elevated temperatures along with stagnant air often found basements. These are a high altitude species that require fresh clean and crisp air, especially if long term breeding or overall health is a goal. I would not recommend foams or "pink" spun glass insulation of any type. No vapor barriers, nor most forms in general that would ever be exposed to the animals. Mineral wool board would most likely (as it often is) my recommendation for this where it actually is needed or warranted. Again more design details for the project would need to be seen.

If you wish, feel free to send me an email if details and advise is desired...

Regards,

j
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post #19 of 21 Old 12-15-2018, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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Hello J. First ill say thank you for taking that kind of time and energy into looking over all (or even some) of that. Iv had a number of threads on here discussing various topics about the room i want to make. So that would not be a simple or fast task to even glance at them all.



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I am not sure whether you are intending a husbandry program for your animals or just maintenance of pet Chinchilla? I am also not certain if your quesitons here on this forum have been well understood by readers here? Much of the advice thus far given seems to have been more about "construction opinions" and not often well founded in fact and/or completely lacking in understanding of these animals requirements in captivity...
Im sure some of mine questions havnt been understood by some ppl. I have had a lot of them. - But iv had a few ppl that have replied in many of my posts along this whole journey. Some times even bringing up things i mentioned in other posts. (Which surprised me that some ppl remembered that level of detail about a strangers random post.) So im thankful for that. But i also get some that are random ppl responding to a specific line once.



As for some poor responses, i figured i few would show up. That was one of the main reasons i came here asking about things for this project. Every time i had a topic i tried to research, i would find completely contradictory answers. Every single time. If you could think of a side, there was articles out there saying that it was the correct way to do things. And by the end of the research, i did have more understanding... but know real clue which was correct. - So i came here and started asking questions. Figured id try to get some answers from real ppl about my situation specifically instead of random guidelines. So this site definitely has helped.









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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Finishes and sealers of most commercial application in domestic used from a home center can very well "out gas" to a degree that will effect these animals health, especially if fresh and/or in a confined new built space like a basement. Urethane, Polys and OPC floor sealers are a definite...NO WAY and NEVER...category.
This was the first time i ever used a concrete floor sealer. And ill admit, those fumes were a lot stronger then i thought they would be. But its been airing out for a couple months now. The floor did need it tho. If you put some water on the floor, it sounded like a thing of rice crispy's with the water sinking into it and the air escaping up. So the sealant is already down now. Been airing out for a months. I know chins have much more shallow respiratory systems. So iv been giving that as much time as i can. - I dont have much of a sense of smell, but the guy i rent a room out to is more sensitive to it. When i applied the second coat he timed it to be gone those first couple days. But now he has no issues going down there. Time, fans and air; really all i can do there.





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As too insulation modalities asked about on another post, I did not see enough information about design to really do well by giving advice. I can state again, that these animals can be very sensitive to construction materials and particulate matter in the air of confined space, as well as elevated temperatures along with stagnant air often found basements. These are a high altitude species that require fresh clean and crisp air, especially if long term breeding or overall health is a goal. I would not recommend foams or "pink" spun glass insulation of any type. No vapor barriers, nor most forms in general that would ever be exposed to the animals. Mineral wool board would most likely (as it often is) my recommendation for this where it actually is needed or warranted. Again more design details for the project would need to be seen.
I looked into the rockwool brand of insulation for this. Unfortunately, its just to expensive. As if doing all this isnt enough.. doing it on a small budget is much more of a pain. - I also just picked up the fiberglass roll insulation a few days ago. The stud frame work with the insulation will be closed in with the drywall. Im still not sure what im doing with the ceiling tho. I was planning on putting insulation in the rafters. (keep basement chin room cold while leaving the first floor warm.) But i dont want to leave it open like that. I know ill be having more work done over time (electrical), so i dont want to put something to hard to get down. I also likely dont have the money to get any kind of cover for the ceiling, so i might just have to leave that part uninsulated for now. The cold should stay down there well enough even without ceiling insulation. It been a pretty constant 55f down there this month. And with winter just starting, i highly doubt it will get to warm down there for a while. (Altho i do have a portable AC for the room.)




As for the project itself; Im making a room within a room in the basement.

Chinchilla care im good with. Iv had them for about 10 years now. I currently only have 8. But they are located in a bedroom right now. And they take up every inch of that room. The trouble is, i need to rent that second bedroom out if i want to keep this house. (Disability sucks.) So i need to get those chins out of there. But i need to put them in a room where i can control the temp and humidity specifically for them. Because while i love the heat... it can be fatal for them. So i need control over that. Of course i dont have a room like that. Thus; making a room in the basement.


Of course it cant be that simple.There is a slight water issue down there. Not on the side of the basement where this room will be. But on the other side. Its only a slow seepage into very small puddles, which mostly drain away from the new room to where the sump pump is; And only when its a heavy rain. - It sounds worse then it is. But its the type of thing that would require a lot of work to fix. And expensive work at that. And i simply can not do it now. Its not even close to being an option right now. But losing the house if that room doesnt get rented out is a much more real issue. So im stuck in the position of making this room, within the limitations that this situation provides me. And doing it with a very limited budget at that.



anyway... in a week or so i plan to make a video of it, showing everything, and what im planning on doing. Let ppl critique that and see if im missing or overlooking anything or have something wrong, etc. It will be easier having a direct visual to see what im talking about instead of this wall of text. - Have to finish painting the door so i can get it out of the way first. (Apparently it only came primed, and must be painted to maintain warranty.)
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post #20 of 21 Old 12-15-2018, 07:07 PM
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...Hello J. First ill say thank you for taking that kind of time and energy into looking over all (or even some) of that...
Hi Wolfgang,

You are most welcome...

I took the time because I noticed you have these little guys as pets. I really like "chinches...!!!...and love recommending them to folks as pets. I have also had some dealings with the fur trade (which in full disclosure I am not against sense I tan and use traditional leathers and furs.) Chinchilla are great animals for all manner of reason in my opinion...

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... Every time i had a topic i tried to research, i would find completely contradictory answers. Every single time...
No surprise there...Welcome to the internet...LOL!!!

Opinions abound, some good, some just silly and many just plan wrong and/or out of context...

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... This was the first time i ever used a concrete floor sealer. And ill admit, those fumes were a lot stronger then i thought they would be. But its been airing out for a couple months now...
All I can say to that...is I hope it will be (???) workable for you after it all dries...

These animals are really hardy in some regards as they can be keep outside with ill effect, but in confined space modern finishes and petroleum based sealers, polyurethane, paints, molds, etc are a big concern for outgassing and other issues for a species like this. At minimum they can cause respiratory distress (just like in humans)...at worst they shorten the life of the animal and cause general poor health (aka fail to thrive syndrome.)

The floor being able to "breath" was not necessarily a bad thing, nor actually worth spending money on for what you need it to do. I have spent too many hours in my career in architecture...removing...cement floors to replace them with wood and/or stone...partly for aesthetics and partly for better air quality and drainage...

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...As for the project itself; Im making a room within a room in the basement...Chinchilla care im good with. Iv had them for about 10 years now. I currently only have 8.
I'm sorry about you having to rent a room to keep the house and the disability...I can relate as a lot of Military friends have very similar life challenges to deal with.

Mineral wool is expensive, but it actually works where "pink insulation" is more con game than actual insulation. It looses "R factor" as it get colder, and if the humidity goes higher than 70% (very common) within the interstitial zone of a wall its R factor goes to about zero...So, all in all, it is more "psychological" to put it into a wall than actually functional overall. It's one of the largest "con games" I deal with in the construction industry. Thankfully, more and more architects, builders and the like are aware of this. I tell clients all the time I would they use foam or cellulose (both I strongly dislike as well) over the use of pink insulation. You'd be better off saving the money and returning it that using it at all. The "Flywheel" effect down under there (aka basement) should be more than enough to keep your Chinchilla within an ambient zone of temperature good for them.

Air cleaning/circulation would be my primary issue considering its a basement...and...you have a known moisture challenge in part of that area...

As for the ceiling...don't bother. Its a waste of time and money. General rule of thumb in HVAC engineering is 60/30/10...which is the average heat loss for a confined space (roughly) and indicates where focus needs to be for insulation needs typically. Now, this changes a great deal for a space like a basement or underground home, especially with your situation and the fact this isn't for "humans" but a high altitude rodent!!! Different conditions entirely...As such, I don't think you need to spend money or energy thinking or worrying about insulation and should be more concerned with air quality and outgassing more than anything else.

So I would frame the walls as lightly as possible (mainly to save you money and time) and not overthink this design too much...

For walls and doors that..."just have to be painted"...because a client doesn't like wood and wants color or needs to save money and time, I have done rooms like this for vivaria, and aviary designs in basements and used nothing more than a framework like you would find for large "painters canvas" to form the walls and dropped ceilings.

Otherwise, I would just go to an inexpensive local saw mill for my materials. I would build the walls and floor out of "green wood" and be done with it...!!!...just like 99.9% of homes got built before 1950. It will dry in place well enough and gaps aren't large enough to be an issue typically in a basement. More time can be taken to joint everything if you have the skills and are "anel retentative" like I am...LOL!!! If you want to spend the money on expensive kiln dried lumber at a "big box store" that is your choice. Air dried pine sitting at a local saw mill would work just fine and does.

There is another option as well, but I am assuming a lot about the basement that I don't know for sure about. And that is the same material used to build all manner of animal enclosure, food prep areas and the like. That would be to paint everything (but the ceiling) with a botanical based epoxy that is food grade, safe and doesn't outgas. I can recommend one if you are interested in this approach.

All in all, I would go the "simple wood room" way and avoid extra expense. I would also recommend perhaps reassuring yourself by talking to a commercial farmer. Shoots Chinchilla Ranch are a great group of folks and I'm sure would love talking to you...When you see how they raise "Chinches" you will know you are probably overthinking all of this...

Good luck and let me know if I can expand on anything...

j
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