Expansion to the EXTREME!!!!! - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 04-11-2019, 12:39 AM Thread Starter
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Expansion to the EXTREME!!!!!

LOL !!! This is the joists system on a 80' front porch that had composite T&G flooring that was anchored TOO tight. This swelled from center (40') and went to each corner....capow....moved each corner 2" out, to add to problem it butted into the house around the corner @ 40 ' and swelled/moved both again 2 " out the other direction....so it trapazoided the 2 corners. We're always talking about wood movement on WWT. This is a GREAT showing how much power is involved!!! It ripped out 1/2" lag bolts. There is some joists to replace from rot....makes me wonder about some of the company's treatment processes.

All the T&G was butted tight. The owner had a structural engineer come out and give opinion....his was the vinyl porch posts and the metal railing didn't move together in heating or cooling causing the push...2 more "contractors" had the same basic opinions. WOW....NO ONE seen the obvious until I inspected. Buildings are just a larger piece of furniture in my eyes.....!!!!!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TNFCBVE8EAYQ4V6u5
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-11-2019, 06:51 AM
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I have resawn some boards that just explode at the last inch from the pressure and it scare the crap out of you. Tons of energy and strength in the wood. This however, is a totally different animal and even with over 40 years in the shop, I am always amazed at what power there is in wood movement. It incredible. Thanks for sharing these pics. Pretty cool stuff.

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post #3 of 20 Old 04-11-2019, 10:24 AM
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wow......

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post #4 of 20 Old 04-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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Amazing! I can see from the first photo...it pulled the anchors right out of the concrete. What power! I wonder who will have to pay the bill for the repair? The composite flooring must expand significantly more than wood, or was it because it was fastened with no gaps and doesn't shrink...only expands. So many questions.

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post #5 of 20 Old 04-11-2019, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...Buildings are just a larger piece of furniture in my eyes.....!!!!!
I agree...and if that deck was built that way...I don't think what we are seeing would have taken place...or...at least fixing it would be a lot easier...LOL......but I'm biases as almost everything I make joinery holding it together...LOL...

I can't even comment about the "experts" that could figure this out...Welcome to the world of architectural woodworking...LOL

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post #6 of 20 Old 04-12-2019, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmercer_48083 View Post
Amazing! I can see from the first photo...it pulled the anchors right out of the concrete. What power! I wonder who will have to pay the bill for the repair? The composite flooring must expand significantly more than wood, or was it because it was fastened with no gaps and doesn't shrink...only expands. So many questions.
This time frame was about the changing of chemical in PT lumber and the composite was "new" to our area/region....so it's been some time. He said the first winter EVERYTHING was popping pertaining to the porch. He said the first major give was in the night just outside of the bedroom and they thought an explosion had happened. MANY, MANY attempts have been thrown at this to salvage....you still have to KNOW what the problem is to fix it. The client had someone else tear off to save money and that created another repair issues as the technique they used damaged many floor joists...sometimes saving money actually costs you more....JUST saying my thoughts/facts.

Homeowner is footing this bill due to timeframe, no one knew what was going on to cause problem, no expansion joints, lack of knowledge, lack of knowledge, lack of knowledge....get the point!?!?!? even the engineer nor architech knew the answer...sad, sad.
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Last edited by Tennessee Tim; 04-12-2019 at 08:50 AM.
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post #7 of 20 Old 04-12-2019, 09:55 PM
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Some Pressure treated lumber is wet when purchased. This lumber will definitely shrink when it dries.
Itís interesting to study the pictures and see that this lumber pulled itself completely out of the joist hangers. Iím guessing it shrank at least 2Ē in total length.
Iíve seen shrinkage before but this was extreme.
Prior to this the worst shrinkage I had seen was with Cedar.

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post #8 of 20 Old 04-12-2019, 10:20 PM
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When I use pressure treated I stack and sticker it someplace dry and let it season for four to six weeks before attempting to use it.
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post #9 of 20 Old 04-12-2019, 11:31 PM
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This isn't a "shrink issue"...Look a bit closer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
... Iím guessing it shrank at least 2Ē in total length...


This wasn't caused by "shrinking" yet rather "expansion" which often is a much bigger concern in architecture...

I've seen entire gable walls have all there framing (and joinery) blown apart because of expansion. One of the reasons I personally find working with green wood a better option in most applications that I work in. As such, the style of work that once was more common here in North America understood this...Dry wood is not always a "good thing"...or...underestimating its application can tear a frame apart...ergo this post by Tim...

P.S. Note the title of the post...
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-13-2019, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
LOL !!! This is the joists system on a 80' front porch that had composite T&G flooring that was anchored TOO tight. This swelled from center (40') and went to each corner....capow....moved each corner 2" out, to add to problem it butted into the house around the corner @ 40 ' and swelled/moved both again 2 " out the other direction....so it trapazoided the 2 corners. We're always talking about wood movement on WWT. This is a GREAT showing how much power is involved!!! It ripped out 1/2" lag bolts. There is some joists to replace from rot....makes me wonder about some of the company's treatment processes.

All the T&G was butted tight. The owner had a structural engineer come out and give opinion....his was the vinyl porch posts and the metal railing didn't move together in heating or cooling causing the push...2 more "contractors" had the same basic opinions. WOW....NO ONE seen the obvious until I inspected. Buildings are just a larger piece of furniture in my eyes.....!!!!!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TNFCBVE8EAYQ4V6u5
Tim:

Thanks for the photos.

Just so I understand correctly...you are saying that the flooring was installed with no spacing between the boards....can I assume the boards were perpendicular to the house? So the composite boards (like Trex?) expanded in the width, just like cedar would have?

Wow!

I had no idea a composite deck flooring would do that. I have my Trex composite installed with a 1/4" gap between each board and they are individually screwed to the joists. I have never seen any movement in my joists. I see expansion and contraction in my cedar flooring, but they are also installed with a 1/4" gap between each board and individually screwed to the joists.

What about using the cleats on the bottoms of the boards that are attached to the joists? I assume they would not let the boards expand and contract either.

Eric

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-13-2019, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORBlackFZ1 View Post
Tim:

Thanks for the photos.

Just so I understand correctly...you are saying that the flooring was installed with no spacing between the boards....can I assume the boards were perpendicular to the house? So the composite boards (like Trex?) expanded in the width, just like cedar would have?

Wow!

I had no idea a composite deck flooring would do that. I have my Trex composite installed with a 1/4" gap between each board and they are individually screwed to the joists. I have never seen any movement in my joists. I see expansion and contraction in my cedar flooring, but they are also installed with a 1/4" gap between each board and individually screwed to the joists.

What about using the cleats on the bottoms of the boards that are attached to the joists? I assume they would not let the boards expand and contract either.

Eric
***NOTE*** ALL things have a expansion and a contraction !!!! That is why it's important to know the product/material you're working with. AND it varies by heat/cold , humid/dry or what ever makes a material cause it's movement....some things are reactive as mixing of 2 or more products. Steel , vinyl, aluminum, wood, etc., etc. ALL have a different cause, rate and direction....using wood as an example, you have 3 different directional effects from 1 change depending on the grain....basically the length doesn't have the drastic change/movement but it does change then you have the width and thickness. There are proper terms for these that I 'm not recalling early this morning BUT I like keeping it simple....it's the grain direction in the wood....a qtr sawn board moves more in thickness vs width and a "flat" sawn board moves more in width than thickness. Every type of wood has a different ratio, some are closer both ways and others basically effect 1 extremely over the other. Sorry I'm on my tablet or I'd get some links to compare the woods. JOINERY is the next best thing to know....I put it 2nd ONLY because you HAVE to know the material first to select the proper joinery.....one product would move the less than another meaning one may require 1/4" groove and the other may need 1/2" groove for the same sized item...or it may move more up and down vs side to side.


ORBlack...yes perpendicular...it was a composite (like as tradename "Trex" BUT brand type unknown) tongue and groove, it had to have been extremely dry/freshly made, but several other factors played into holding the moisture as 0 to negative fall, we will be at 1 1/2" drop in 8 ' away from house when done EVEN though it wouldn't be required on this application/product, I don't like standing water....drain, drain, drain!!!
Yours should be fine as far as gap goes BUT remember composite reacts linearly also the same (not a structurally grained material) so you'll get a length growth/expansion where wood would be VERY little!!!!

Cleats....this depends on the style of and how they attatch....most of the time when laid out as yours (gap at edge) this allows the movement plus or minus, the boards can absorb around the cleat to a certian extent without damage as to IF they were solidly butted there's eventually 0 give and something has to move!!!

MOVEMENT....This is something critical to ALL applications/materials. There's been many snub mine and Jay's comments on the need to learn the basics with the material (on WWT that's wood mostly) and joinery. JOINERY doesn't have to be elaberate/fancy BUT ALLOW for the movement BUT a person HAS to know what, when, where, why his material reacts to......mostly humidity with wood.
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post #12 of 20 Old 04-13-2019, 10:56 AM
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Great Info in that post Tim...Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...***NOTE*** ALL things have a expansion and a contraction !!!!
So true...!!!...LOL...

And for whatever reason (???) modern woodworkers and builders talk about "know this" yet seldom to I see but the most parochial and/or superficial understanding/application of that knowledge as it applies to our woodworking...

Those "words" (LOL) I think you lost this morning...and I had to drink more coffee to pull out of my head...LOL...is the coefficient of tangential and radial differential in a given piece of wood...Which as you well know...in green woodworking...is our primary focus in understanding where a piece is going to move to (and back from seasonally)...and by how much over time!!!

Your points on means, methods and materials are most certainly in good order from my perspective...!!!

We must (as woodworkers professional or hobbyist) know the material (aka wood and species) first...then the proper "means and methods" (aka joinery) can be effectively applied...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...I don't like standing water....drain, drain, drain!!!
Tim, that slope you suggest is a "rarity" in most decks and it drives me freaking made that builders don't do it or understand why!!!

Any kind of exterior "wood working" of any kind has to focus on DRAINAGE!!!!...The faster the better and this is also true for anything unseen as well like how a joint is designed inside a piece of outdoor furniture or a structures like this deck which in my practice of the craft are always timber framed with zero (or near zero) metal fasteners of any kind...INCLUDING!!!...the decking itself in most designs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...Yours should be fine as far as gap goes BUT remember composite reacts linearly also the same (not a structurally grained material) so you'll get a length growth/expansion where wood would be VERY little!!!!
Excellent point and too often missed or not even known!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...Cleats....this depends on the style of and how they attatch....
IF...I have to use a fastening system I would only go with these and the types that afford expansion contraction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
...JOINERY doesn't have to be elaborate/fancy BUT ALLOW for the movement BUT a person HAS to know what, when, where, why his material reacts to......mostly humidity with wood.
Wow...Joinery...you mean "real woodworking" in the "real world" application of decks too??? Who would ever build a deck with actual joinery in it instead of BIG BOX STORE fasteners and hangers...How strange...

Just an average foundation and frame for deck and wrap around porch...

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post #13 of 20 Old 04-13-2019, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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BEAUTIFUL Jay!!!!! ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

Here's one link I found re movement....

http://www.workshoppages.com/WS/Arti...ent-Charts.pdf

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post #14 of 20 Old 04-14-2019, 02:52 PM
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Not sure i ever saw hurricane clips (we call joist hangers and clips like them, hurricane clips, around here) ripped out without well , a hurricane. I worked mostly in metal all my life and it also moves with temp changes, some times with surprising results. Like the OP said, ALL things have a expansion and a contraction !!!! Heck water freezing and melting can move mountains over time so its not so surprising what it does to wood and other materials.

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post #15 of 20 Old 04-14-2019, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Not sure i ever saw hurricane clips (we call joist hangers and clips like them, hurricane clips, around here) ripped out without well , a hurricane. I worked mostly in metal all my life and it also moves with temp changes, some times with surprising results. Like the OP said, ALL things have a expansion and a contraction !!!! Heck water freezing and melting can move mountains over time so its not so surprising what it does to wood and other materials.
I really don't understand the clips as the true design doesn't nail joists in the correct area and the " hanger" nails are ????? in my opinion....the only thing these done were kept them from dropping BUT had NO holding power/grip per se for the joists.

And think...the water can be a gas (steam) also and BLOW the top off!!!! LOL!!!
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-16-2019, 11:09 PM
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Jay do you have additional shots of the deck in post 12? I am interested in the way it is put together. It looks like the posts support beams that the support the deck joists and decking boards. Forgive if my terms are off but hopefully you can understand what I am talking about.
Are the joists floating on the beams? what gives this structure its rigidity to side to side movement, racking?

Sam
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post #17 of 20 Old 04-16-2019, 11:38 PM
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Jay do you have additional shots of the deck in post 12? I am interested in the way it is put together. It looks like the posts support beams that the support the deck joists and decking boards. Forgive if my terms are off but hopefully you can understand what I am talking about.
Are the joists floating on the beams? what gives this structure its rigidity to side to side movement, racking?
Hey Sam,

I was just closing down for the night, so if you wish for more info...just let me know, and I will expand what I can tomorrow...

Please use whatever terms are comfortable for you to learn and understand these methods...the technical nomenclature will come in time if you get into it...and you will learn it in other languages as well...

Yes...in a since, the joist are just sitting on the girder...there is also a toggle tenon that positions them there as well...and there are other joinery systems that could be used if there was concerns for them as you offered. In this case it isn't worth the added work...Asian architecture, and folk architecture in general...tends to be very economic and practical...Things that don't need to "work" harder than they need to typically are not made to do so...

The bracing is achieved with a "horizontal" system (aka 貫 Nuki Beam or "horizontal penetrating brace beam") rather than the typical "Western" ubiquitous oblique bracing modalities that not only interfere with fenestration design and facilitation, but also are seldom long enough or secured well enough to function as intended. Many actually blow joints apart in seismic events...

Here are some links to work photos that may assist in getting a better understanding...and probably more quesitons...LOL...

Longo Horse Barn Project

Green Halo Minka Project

Luikart Cabin Project

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post #18 of 20 Old 04-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
Some Pressure treated lumber is wet when purchased. This lumber will definitely shrink when it dries.
Itís interesting to study the pictures and see that this lumber pulled itself completely out of the joist hangers. Iím guessing it shrank at least 2Ē in total length.
Iíve seen shrinkage before but this was extreme.
Prior to this the worst shrinkage I had seen was with Cedar.
Shrinks little to none in length, study seasonal wood movement before yo build anything, grain direction matters.
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-20-2019, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Shrinks little to none in length, study seasonal wood movement before yo build anything, grain direction matters.
Thanks Toby, I forgot to address toolman directly and rolled it all up into post 11. Yes very little movement in length of the lumber....it's the width that does the destroying. On this deck, the decking expanded in width equaling a 2" total push in 40' of length. In this case being a composite NOT real wood there was also a expansion lengthwise (due to no grainage structure) of about 3/8-1/2 " according to most of the facia pushed out away from posts. The 1st 32' of resetting isn't too bad BUT the trapezoided corners are hades to get back together. As of Thursday we've bored over 1200 holes (2 step/bit process per screw) and installed over 600 screws, repulled 96' linear ft (5 - 2 ton come alongs and over 200' of cables plus over 50' of various chains and hook points to independantly pull each of the 3 of 4 - 32' sections) back into place plus one 8'x8' trapezoided [email protected] 9' off the ground.

Again thanks Toby for verifying the length movement.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-17-2019, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
Thanks Toby, I forgot to address toolman directly and rolled it all up into post 11. Yes very little movement in length of the lumber....it's the width that does the destroying. On this deck, the decking expanded in width equaling a 2" total push in 40' of length. In this case being a composite NOT real wood there was also a expansion lengthwise (due to no grainage structure) of about 3/8-1/2 " according to most of the facia pushed out away from posts. The 1st 32' of resetting isn't too bad BUT the trapezoided corners are hades to get back together. As of Thursday we've bored over 1200 holes (2 step/bit process per screw) and installed over 600 screws, repulled 96' linear ft (5 - 2 ton come alongs and over 200' of cables plus over 50' of various chains and hook points to independantly pull each of the 3 of 4 - 32' sections) back into place plus one 8'x8' trapezoided [email protected] 9' off the ground.

Again thanks Toby for verifying the length movement.
I've been away, just saw this.

Sounds like a heck of a job! Lucky someone didn't get hurt on that thing. Rock on.
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