"Evil Machine" - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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"Evil Machine"

I'm building a pair of barn doors for a friend, barter system.
It's a 100 year old barn that was 100 years old before it was moved to it's current location. So it is time for some new doors.
The old ones look like Southern yellow pine, west side exposure sun and rain and snow here in Michigan. I opted for Cypress based on advice from mdntndr, BWSmith and others. It's a great wood!
So I got 280 BFT 1" x 10" Cypress from LL Johnson in Charlotte, MI. That's a a great source of all types of wood, and plywood.
Anyway the old doors measure 7'7" x 11'7" So I need 12 footers, but they only have 14's. Oh Well. I had them straight line rip one edge and I figured I could straight line rip the opposite side. I needed at least 28 feet of run in the shop...that's not gonna happen, so I set up a RAS to rip them outside. Using a couple of 12 foot 2" x 12"s and leveling them and making them straight on the fence edge and using a 20 foot 2" x 6" for a fence I got it all set up. Next step is to rip them and rabbet the edges for a 1/2" overlap. I'll use a dado head in the RAS for that. More pictures as I start making them. The originals have clinched over nails for the fasteners. I am still deciding between that and coated deck screws..... bill

BTW "Evil Machine" is what my friend rrich calls the RAS.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-29-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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post #2 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 03:18 PM
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Uncle Bills sawmill

That is a sweet setup.

Them old RAS's really are a versatile machine.

Your setup looks like it will perform your task's safely.

Post up some action shots.


P.S... hows the dust collection?

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post #3 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Dust Distribution by...

Western Breeze. Old company, been around for centuries. Not always reliable however. Yeah, it should work pretty well. I'll post pictures of the "curved" boards.... bill

The old hardware is probably shot. It rolls like its got sand in the wheels, so I'll be rebuilding that. The challenge will be to remove the hardware either in place or lower the door after I get it free at the top. Then rebuild the bushings and install on the new doors with as little down/open time as possible. I'll probably use a rope or cable at the top to gently lower them to the inclined ramp below...another challenge. ...nothing is flat going up to the doors.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-29-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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post #4 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I'm b I needed at least 28 feet of run in the shop...that's not gonna happen, so I set up a RAS to rip them outside. so I set up a RAS to rip them outside.
BILL...I thought you would know better than that. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and dial 911 ahead of time and get them on their way. You may not be able to dial (thank me after you heal up).

I would just break out my 3.25 hp Bosch router with an edge guide and a straight mortising bit. If you don't have one of those, maybe you can rent one of the 5 hp Briggs & Stratton models.








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post #5 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Cman

The router will probably be my choice for the rabbet, since I can't lower the head much further down. I'll see how that goes next. I might try using a roller hold down for the rips.
Most folks don't understand that the blade wants to lift the work off the table when ripping, and the new recall guards have a slide down cover that you can set just above the work piece. A roller might be cool though....no need for predialed 911. Thanks anyway. bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #6 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 05:01 PM
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I might try using a roller hold down for the rips.
Most folks don't understand that the blade wants to lift the work off the table when ripping, and the new recall guards have a slide down cover that you can set just above the work piece. A roller might be cool though....no need for predialed 911. Thanks anyway. bill
What the heck is the problem with ripping with a handheld circular saw. What are you trying to prove??? Maybe it's just me, but some procedures I wouldn't flaunt on a forum full of impressionable members. This reminds me of the guy that says "Here, hold my beer". I'm puttin' 911 in your area on speed dial.








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post #7 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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Nothing to prove to nobody

You got your way, I got mine. If it don't feel safe don't do it...sound familiar? There was not even a hint of an issue lift up or otherwise with this set up and all the work was safely supported from end to end.My son and I worked together as a great team.
Ripping on a RAS can be done safely.... otherwise 5 million RAS saws should be recalled nation wide just in case some bozo wants to try it without following the safety instructions and not using the safety equipment. And I didn't particularly want to find a 12 foot straight edge or cut to a marked line freehand, and measure each piece twice, actually 4 times, 2 on each end....etc...etc...

What I did find was the mill's straight line rip was less than straight on many of the 8 boards I have cut thus far...hmmm

I could have used my Festool and a 130" guide and attached another shorter guide, but I had used a RAS set up like this before and was comfortable with it. There were no issues.
Here's some more pictures:
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #8 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
If it don't feel safe don't do it...sound familiar?
How would a first timer know if it felt safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Ripping on a RAS can be done safely.... otherwise 5 million RAS saws should be recalled nation wide just in case some bozo wants to try it without following the safety instructions and not using the safety equipment.
Now there's a non-solution. We already know that there are bozo's not following safety instructions and not using safety equipment...don't we. So, with those individuals in mind...lets show them another questionable technique.








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post #9 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Ripping Video

Page 32 for ripping instructions on a RAS:
http://www.radialarmsawrecall.com/pub/sp5983-2.pdf


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-29-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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post #10 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 10:33 PM
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Nice set up there, Bill. Been a long time, but I've ripped and dadoed on the RAS. In Jr. High Shop class, that and the jointer were the go to tools; when you needed something cut fast. That looks a lot like my old saw. May have to buy another one day.

Back in their heyday, the RAS was like a milling machine for so many different jobs, plus your eye could be on the cut at all times.

Harrison, at your service!

Last edited by H. A. S.; 07-29-2011 at 10:38 PM.
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post #11 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 05:46 AM
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"Evil machine".....?Heck,I've been hurt more times with a hammer and razor shrp chisel than any pwr equip,just sayin.RAS's or any pce of equip is as safe as you make it.

Lookin at those doors,my concern ain't about the equip however,its in the material handling.Runnin stock/wood is almost 100% predictable.........wrestling big,heavy doors?Thats where I think your ingenuity is gonna pay-off.Blocking under and some sort of "rack" for lack of better descript should be on the menu.Which can assist in the re-install.Conceivably,if the old doors are completely "trash"......you could hack whatever materials needed for the rack out of the exist door's lumber?

Doors in general,don't get the attention during the build/install that they deserve.Builders are so bloomin accustomed to "hang-it & wang-it" that when a special door or anything with even a remote amt of engineering enters the pic......it still gets treated like some "pre-hung" and it then becomes a struggle,after-the-fact.From a getting behind the 8-ball sort of way.Best,BW

Those who say it cannot be done shouldn't interrupt the people doing it.
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post #12 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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My thoughts exactly BW

My main concern is gettin' the old ones down safely and the new ones up in the opposite sort of manner. Gravity and Murphy's Law will play a large roll in both of those approaches. Also depending on how easily they can come off the tracks...just knock out a pin...unscrew the bolts...etc.
WE have access to a huge 4 X 4 John Deere with a bucket to use as a personell lift and to lift the door up. That'll be fun, a little bucket work!
As far as the saw set up, It worked like a charm except for the overload switch cutting out when my "ambitious" son overfed it and it jammed and cut out. The extension cord is getting replaced today with a 12 gauge directly to a 20 Amp outlet. The hold down roller also prevents anyone's fingers from gettin' into the blade, which with the guard on would be unlikely anyhow. I really don't know what all the "criticism" was about and the fear of some "impressionable new comer" trying it. I really can't be responsible for policing the woodworking world for methods I use and feel comfortable with. Kickback was not an issue with the proper feed direction and a board that weighs about 50 lbs. That little saw could barely cut it, much less kick it back. bill
BTW I don't know at this point, but I could certainly saw the old ones into 2 or 3 sections and leave the top for last....hmmm

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-30-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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post #13 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 08:48 AM
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I personally think that looks like a cool set up Bill. Using that roller hold-down the way you are is very ingenuitive. I look forward to seeing the finished product.
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post #14 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 09:07 AM
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woodnthings, it looks like you came up with a fine solution to a tough problem. Well done. Getting the old doors off may be safer if you dismantle them while they are hanging. That way you remove most of the weight and danger in trying to get them off in one piece.

The most reviled machine in any shop is the RAS.

Some folks love the RAS, others hate them. I've used mine for all kinds of cuts and never had a problem. In fact its my "go to" machine for most 90 degree cross cuts. It's all in the set-up and working safely. I have an older Dewalt and the blade guard moves down enough to make a hold down on the piece being ripped. That along with the anti-kick back pawls make for a very safe setup (IMO).

I have safely used mine to resaw 2x6 boards into 1x6's for a tool stand I use for my thickness planner. Lowered the blade guard, set the pawls, and used a push board to finish the cuts. Piece of cake.

I like the idea of the rollers being used as hold downs. I may try to devise something like that for the next rip job I do on mine.

No offense Cman, but someone who is a novice wood worker probably doesn't own a RAS and by the time they acquire one, they should have developed the skills needed to use it safely.

Personally I love my RAS, and would be lost without it.

If Woodworking is so much fun why isn't it called WoodFUNNING?

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post #15 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 10:54 AM
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Bill,

Great hold down.

I see nothing wrong with your procedure.

I also don't see why we shouldn't be able to share techniques between woodworkers. There are warnings on the site.

You can't protect someone from them self. Sometimes I look at a person and wonder how they got to be that old... without getting run over crossing the street.

As far as someone viewing this, I think you showed great safety in your roller setup.





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post #16 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 11:10 AM
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Bill,

Great hold down.

I see nothing wrong with your procedure.

Sometimes I look at a person and wonder how they got to be that old... without getting run over crossing the street.

As far as someone viewing this, I think you showed great safety in your roller setup.





This is woodworking talk dot com... not Jr. bozo dot com.

Man, I hear that!

Harrison, at your service!
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post #17 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 02:20 PM
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I also don't see why we shouldn't be able to share techniques between woodworkers. There are warnings on the site.

You can't protect someone from them self. Sometimes I look at a person and wonder how they got to be that old... without getting run over crossing the street.

As far as someone viewing this, I think you showed great safety in your roller setup.
I agree that one purpose of WW'ng forums is to share techniques and methods. And you're right...we can't protect someone from them self. I'm glad Bill's project came through OK, and my good friend and son remained unscathed.

I guess when a lot of time is spent in the shop, one can get overly cautious and have the experience to forsee the possibilities of what can go wrong. I'm likely in that group. I have the propensity to offer suggestions that suit my better judgment for an open forum format. What I do personally that tips the scale and is in reality unsafe in someone else's book, I may consider safe. So I understand Bill's reasoning about the "What's Safe" question. Those procedures might get me through the day, but some of them I wouldn't document to others.

As for Bill solving the how to rip long boards, I actually give him a gold star for being able to accomplish the task with the tools available. If he just didn't have all those table saws bolted together, and one...just one on a mobile base...








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post #18 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the gold C-man

Quote:

As for Bill solving the how to rip long boards, I actually give him a gold star for being able to accomplish the task with the tools available. If he just didn't have all those table saws bolted together, and one...just one on a mobile base...

Actually those 3 saws are in the upper level shop...and they're gonna' stay there. There were still a few more saws downstairs...on mobile bases..... but this seemed the most expedient way. The motor on that particular RAS is underpowered I must say....while we waited for the thermal overload to reset, we just gave up this AM, went to breakfast , haircuts and the farmers vegetable stand. Came back and it ran again OK. It's probably fine for cross cutting which is what I use them for 99.7% of the time, but not for ripping 14 ft lengths at a time. I just won't use that saw in the future for rips. The 12 gauge extension cord helped a lot, it tripped on the last cut on the last of the 16 boards remaining.

Next step is cut to them length and rout the rabbetts.....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-30-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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post #19 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 03:01 PM
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There were still a few more saws downstairs...on mobile bases..... but this seemed the most expedient way. The motor on that particular RAS is underpowered I must say....
I had a similar situation when I had to rip some 12/4 Mahogany, 20" wide...18' long. I did have a 14" 3 phase RAS. I had enough infeed and outfeed for both the RAS, and the table saw, but used the table saw as that was the safest most convenient and easiest machine to maneuver the stock. Table saws...ya just can't beat 'em.








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post #20 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 06:17 PM
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I use my RAS for nearly everything and I couldn't survive without and the cuts are amazing. Keep the chop saws.
I like that hold down roller that's nice.
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