Epoxy and Finishing Help Needed - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 07:41 PM
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I think you guys need to kiss and make up or kill the threadbrfore it gets too carried away.

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post #22 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 07:50 PM
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LMAO...No worries Tony B.

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I think you guys need to kiss and make up or kill the thread before it gets too carried away.
No worries Brother, I'm done...unless the OP actually comes back and asks more quesitons himself?

David may have gotten all the information he needed, and if not, I'm glad to help where I can, as I know many of you are too!!!

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post #23 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 08:21 PM
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No 'splainin' my weird yankee humor.
BTW, should 'Yankee' be capitalized? or just hung? LOL

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post #24 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 09:54 PM
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I'm done with this thread, too. Thanks to all for contributing.
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post #25 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
It's so basically simple. When you see what I see you will understand.
LOL...I guess???? maybe I will too??? Save the picture and drawing , it'd be TOO simple for me to understand it (I think) also....I guess it's my background and liking facts and experience to support my answers.

I had other questions re some of your responses BUT I've decided to let this drop...

OP enjoy your build and show us pics!!!!
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-03-2019, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
So sorry, but I am not following your thoughts either. I tried to figure it out for myself, but I don't get it. Like Jay, I must lack the necessary experience and intuition to understand.
For the bowties to be effective across a void they would need to be longer. Then if you were to make them effective it would be counterproductive if the wood was still shrinking as it would cause a break to the right of the place repaired. If the void were just filled chances are if something broke it would be just the fill and not a new place which could lead to a whole section coming out.

As far as appearance my personal believe is a cookie is something that should be left as nature made it and not have something man made like a bowtie put in it. At the same time though it's a table top and shouldn't have a void that far into it so I would have filled it. This clock someone made about 30 years ago which has been filled with what looks like sawdust and glue is a nice repair. When finished it has the same appearance as the bark which extends into the void, a more natural look. Before it's said I don't like the poured epoxy on the clock either. The clock was something my parents bought somewhere.
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-03-2019, 07:46 PM
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Hello All...

Well...It would seem that this topic is continuing, and as stated, when information is provided that is either incorrect (from my experience and knowledge base) or an inaccurate speculation, I feel compelled to address each of the points made...just as I have done my best during this entire conversation...

If Tool Agnostic (for give me for responding first to Steve's response) or any other reader would like to offer any...actual...photographic, research or empirical evidence within their own work history to the contrary, I would be more than pleased to consider its impact on the conversation and my understanding of the subject as it is now...

I will expand further many of these points in both the "Bow-Tie or Butterfly Joinery Systems" post I started and in a post I will be starting later covering "Cookies there harvesting, storing, and working," to expand on what I share here, and what several others have asked of me offline to share publicly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...For the bowties to be effective across a void they would need to be longer...
That is absolutely...not true..

I have presented more than enough evidence in just the below posts within this thread to address the inaccuracies of that statement.

Both my own decades of work with this joinery system and the links I have shared have more than validated that the butterflys (and their geometry) that David selected to employ in his table are actually well place and balance very well for the overall affect on his piece and its design, which I would state (opinion here) is excellent!!!

Please note: Cookies are very reactive and will respond quickly to bad practices usually within a very short time of application. Could their be issues of some type in the future...???...Only time will tell, but I doubt it very much...and I would suggest it will be from some other mitigating situation like humidity, being left in the ran or put through some other environmental extreme...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...Then if you were to make them effective it would be counterproductive if the wood was still shrinking as it would cause a break to the right of the place repaired.
Again, that has not been my experience at all...Nor that of anyone I have worked with regarding this subject topic. Please do present an example of it happening Steve within you own work or those of collegues?

As to the location of the suggested fracture...it could be on either the left or right of placement depending on the interstitial stresses of a given cookie. I know because I have seen it happen way more than once. However, that only happens..."IF!"...the Butterfly (or other joinery system) was not effectively executed. It would also happen if an epoxy bridge was applied...especially with splining, as this would completely arrest (or try to) any movement within the cookie and that...WOULD FAIL...most certainly as the movement in Cookies is most challenging because of the variable coefficients in movement between the center of the piece and its edges...

I have worked up large Cookies that are green (and will be doing a "test example" over the next few months for the other post on this subject with a large Acer saccharinum (Silver Maple) to demonstrate what some of the issue can be...AND, why the above statement is not true and why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...If the void were just filled chances are if something broke it would be just the fill and not a new place which could lead to a whole section coming out...
Please share an example of this happening in your work...Otherwise that statement is stickily speculation.

I can share that if a "pie section" (created or naturally occurring) within a cookie is filled with an adhesive and/or other joinery system (in a locking fashion) the likely hood of a proximal new fissure forming (left or right) is extremely high. This is a given loss factor often when working "green cookie" that have not been relaxed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...As far as appearance my personal believe is a cookie is something that should be left as nature made it and not have something man made like a bow-tie put in it.
I would not debate that point at all, and in many situations and examples of specimens I have worked with and/or consulted on...I completely agree fully with that sentiment. They are better off just left...AS IS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...At the same time though it's a table top and shouldn't have a void that far into it so I would have filled it...
That is a design prerogative, and again open to the design goals of the maker and/or client. I can share that "locked voids" can (very often) lead to much greater issues. They are a specially repair/alteration to any cookie and not just a matter of pouring in some epoxy nor...EVER...trying to arrest movement by just void space alteration...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...This clock someone made about 30 years ago which has been filled with what looks like sawdust and glue is a nice repair. When finished it has the same appearance as the bark which extends into the void, a more natural look. Before it's said I don't like the poured epoxy on the clock either. The clock was something my parents bought somewhere...
I can't speak to what..."you think"...you see in the clock...

I can share with you and the other reader with about 90% certainty that there is no "sawdust and glue" repairs within the face of that clock and only a naturally occurring bark inclusion and this example has the "inner bark" near the xylem left intact...

What I can also share (and I thank you for the opportunity) is a perfect example of "cookie work"...AND!!!...my orgin understanding of this craft going back to 1969!!! as I and my family made a living (for a spell) harvesting these and working them up for both retail and wholesale vendors in Florida...

That clock face is a perfect example of a "Cypress Clock" (please note some are made of Juniper from the same region as we harvested both) which came into vogue as early as the 20's and 30's and it is made from a "Cypress Slice" typically, which are still being made today. I even know some of the vendors and harvesters...my own last foray into the bayou to do so was in the early 90's...

For sake of clarity (and validation) for you Steve, and the other readers, you are making comments about something here based on your "I think" concepts and opinions...NOT...on a valid footing of experience and understanding. I really don't think its fair to the readers, or germane to the topic of Cookies to keep debating me as if our view points regarding this topic are equal in some way?

I harvested my first "wood slice" (aka Cookie) standing next to a Seminole-Creole Elder in 1969 and there have been thousands of other specimens of this unique wood product under my hand since that time...I think in this post thread alone I have more than demonstrated a well versed (and validated) understanding of this "folk tradition," and would further suggest (respectfully and sincerely Steve) you are out of your depths on this subject matter.

I must, at this juncture, offer that it very much felt rather disrespectful for you to claim some kind of "wisdom" or "vision" that I (we?) don't have regarding this topic and that you seem to think you do?...I must share that seem rather obtuse and hubristic to me?
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post #28 of 29 Old 02-03-2019, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Hello All...

Well...It would seem that this topic is continuing, and as stated, when information is provided that is either incorrect (from my experience and knowledge base) or an inaccurate speculation, I feel compelled to address each of the points made...just as I have done my best during this entire conversation...

If Tool Agnostic (for give me for responding first to Steve's response) or any other reader would like to offer any...actual...photographic, research or empirical evidence within their own work history to the contrary, I would be more than pleased to consider its impact on the conversation and my understanding of the subject as it is now...

I will expand further many of these points in both the "Bow-Tie or Butterfly Joinery Systems" post I started and in a post I will be starting later covering "Cookies there harvesting, storing, and working," to expand on what I share here, and what several others have asked of me offline to share publicly...



That is absolutely...not true..

I have presented more than enough evidence in just the below posts within this thread to address the inaccuracies of that statement.

Both my own decades of work with this joinery system and the links I have shared have more than validated that the butterflys (and their geometry) that David selected to employ in his table are actually well place and balance very well for the overall affect on his piece and its design, which I would state (opinion here) is excellent!!!

Please note: Cookies are very reactive and will respond quickly to bad practices usually within a very short time of application. Could their be issues of some type in the future...???...Only time will tell, but I doubt it very much...and I would suggest it will be from some other mitigating situation like humidity, being left in the ran or put through some other environmental extreme...



Again, that has not been my experience at all...Nor that of anyone I have worked with regarding this subject topic. Please do present an example of it happening Steve within you own work or those of collegues?

As to the location of the suggested fracture...it could be on either the left or right of placement depending on the interstitial stresses of a given cookie. I know because I have seen it happen way more than once. However, that only happens..."IF!"...the Butterfly (or other joinery system) was not effectively executed. It would also happen if an epoxy bridge was applied...especially with splining, as this would completely arrest (or try to) any movement within the cookie and that...WOULD FAIL...most certainly as the movement in Cookies is most challenging because of the variable coefficients in movement between the center of the piece and its edges...

I have worked up large Cookies that are green (and will be doing a "test example" over the next few months for the other post on this subject with a large Acer saccharinum (Silver Maple) to demonstrate what some of the issue can be...AND, why the above statement is not true and why...



Please share an example of this happening in your work...Otherwise that statement is stickily speculation.

I can share that if a "pie section" (created or naturally occurring) within a cookie is filled with an adhesive and/or other joinery system (in a locking fashion) the likely hood of a proximal new fissure forming (left or right) is extremely high. This is a given loss factor often when working "green cookie" that have not been relaxed.



I would not debate that point at all, and in many situations and examples of specimens I have worked with and/or consulted on...I completely agree fully with that sentiment. They are better off just left...AS IS!



That is a design prerogative, and again open to the design goals of the maker and/or client. I can share that "locked voids" can (very often) lead to much greater issues. They are a specially repair/alteration to any cookie and not just a matter of pouring in some epoxy nor...EVER...trying to arrest movement by just void space alteration...



I can't speak to what..."you think"...you see in the clock...

I can share with you and the other reader with about 90% certainty that there is no "sawdust and glue" repairs within the face of that clock and only a naturally occurring bark inclusion and this example has the "inner bark" near the xylem left intact...

What I can also share (and I thank you for the opportunity) is a perfect example of "cookie work"...AND!!!...my orgin understanding of this craft going back to 1969!!! as I and my family made a living (for a spell) harvesting these and working them up for both retail and wholesale vendors in Florida...

That clock face is a perfect example of a "Cypress Clock" (please note some are made of Juniper from the same region as we harvested both) which came into vogue as early as the 20's and 30's and it is made from a "Cypress Slice" typically, which are still being made today. I even know some of the vendors and harvesters...my own last foray into the bayou to do so was in the early 90's...

For sake of clarity (and validation) for you Steve, and the other readers, you are making comments about something here based on your "I think" concepts and opinions...NOT...on a valid footing of experience and understanding. I really don't think its fair to the readers, or germane to the topic of Cookies to keep debating me as if our view points regarding this topic are equal in some way?

I harvested my first "wood slice" (aka Cookie) standing next to a Seminole-Creole Elder in 1969 and there have been thousands of other specimens of this unique wood product under my hand since that time...I think in this post thread alone I have more than demonstrated a well versed (and validated) understanding of this "folk tradition," and would further suggest (respectfully and sincerely Steve) you are out of your depths on this subject matter.

I must, at this juncture, offer that it very much felt rather disrespectful for you to claim some kind of "wisdom" or "vision" that I (we?) don't have regarding this topic and that you seem to think you do?...I must share that seem rather obtuse and hubristic to me?
Sorry but you are delusional. Everything I have posted is true and correct. It doesn't matter how much you lie about it that won't change the nature of wood.
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-03-2019, 09:31 PM
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Please remove this and previous comment...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Sorry but you are delusional. Everything I have posted is true and correct. It doesn't matter how much you lie about it that won't change the nature of wood.
Steve,

The above comment is disrespectful, impertinent, and presumptuous..

You have offered...NOTHING!!!...but words as if you are some expert on this topic, and done so with little to no validation other than..."you can see it"...and other can't or aren't as smart as you...

Sir, you are out of your depth on this topic, and at this point, I will state on many others as well. You share your "opinions" too often and very often as if they are some issuance of fact, and seldom do you validation or backup your..."I think"...perspectives with any real world tangible evidence...

I have requested this and your last post be removed...or...your forced to edit it with actual tangible evidence...otherwise please fall silent on this subject...

Please offer some actual evidence and proof of you understandings about "cookies" and "butterfly joinery"...or...concede the fact that you have none...

Respectfully submitted for forum moderators to consider...
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