Epoxy and Finishing Help Needed - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-29-2019, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Epoxy and Finishing Help Needed

Newbie here, so feel free to correct me on anything.

I've been working on this red oak (I think) cookie slab to use as a coffee table. I wanted to use an epoxy resin to fill the cracks and prevent dust from getting stuck in there. Question #1: Do you guys think I should epoxy fill the large crack with the bowties to prevent things from falling through? Maybe only out to the small bowtie? Out to the larger one? Out to the edge of the table?

Also, I am not a fan of glossy epoxy finishes and the wife is not a fan of how orange a natural finish looks on oak, so I was thinking of using a natural looking stain and a very light application of maybe a gray stain to give it a cooler tone. Anyways, for a durable finish that will be resistant to water stains and normal coffee table usage, as well as something that won't disagree with the stain and the epoxy fills, Question #2: Should I use shellac, laquer, or poly?
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-29-2019, 09:22 PM
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Lumber Splitting?

This conversation covers a lot of your questions...and has other links of interest in it as well. Hope the link helps...That is going to be a nice table when completed...
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post #3 of 29 Old 01-29-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Cano Mejia View Post
Newbie here, so feel free to correct me on anything.

I've been working on this red oak (I think) cookie slab to use as a coffee table. I wanted to use an epoxy resin to fill the cracks and prevent dust from getting stuck in there. Question #1: Do you guys think I should epoxy fill the large crack with the bowties to prevent things from falling through? Maybe only out to the small bowtie? Out to the larger one? Out to the edge of the table?

Also, I am not a fan of glossy epoxy finishes and the wife is not a fan of how orange a natural finish looks on oak, so I was thinking of using a natural looking stain and a very light application of maybe a gray stain to give it a cooler tone. Anyways, for a durable finish that will be resistant to water stains and normal coffee table usage, as well as something that won't disagree with the stain and the epoxy fills, Question #2: Should I use shellac, laquer, or poly?
I believe I would have run a spline cutter in the void instead of the bowties and fill with epoxy but since the bowties are there might as well fill the void. You can mask off the void on both sides to prevent the epoxy from getting on the face of the cookie. Once filled sand it flat with the wood and finish. The red can be counteracted by using a green dye stain. Then you could use the gray stain. With a dye, especially on end grain it's better to use multiple coats rather than trying to use one coat. You don't want so much you turn the wood green. It's mixed about the color of lime coolaid when using it for that application. If the table is expected to frequently have sweaty glasses put on it then you shouldn't use shellac or lacquer. Shellac or nitrocellulose lacquer isn't very water resistant but a fully catalyzed lacquer is pretty water resistant. Poly though is completely waterproof with enough coats.
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-29-2019, 11:45 PM
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ちぎりChigiri - "Butterfly Ties" are an acient and standard practice...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...I believe I would have run a spline cutter in the void instead of the bow-ties and fill with epoxy but since the bow-ties are there might as well fill the void...
Filling that void is probably the worse thing that could be done for the long term durability of the piece...as it will not allow for the seasonal movement that Cookies are known for. The ちぎりChigiri (aka Bow-tie) are the method for arresting the expansion of a crack by pulling it together with the geometry of the joinery yet also facilitate an appropriate amount of seasonal change in the wood...

I'm aware from previous conversations (see: Burl Table Top) with other OP's here on the forum Steve that you don't care for the look and function of ちぎりChigiri (aka Butterfly or Bowtie Joinery)...However, that does not change the fact that they are an acient and well proven joinery system intended for exactly the type of loads situations that "Cookies" present with.

They are more than strong enough and actually facilitate the Cookie with the seasonal expansion they will continue to go through. As to strength and durability, that is inherent to their geometry when properly placed, to the point of supporting the base of ships and water craft for many seasons of use. There is not to many items made of wood that takes a beating like the bow of a ship or its keel (see photos below.)

I can't strongly enough suggest...against...trying to freeze or arrest the Cookie from moving with epoxies, as this will not only place uneven stresses to new locations very often, but can also influence the way other finishes (if chosen) look and perform, but that's just my experience within the craft. As for the small voids, those can be, with moderation in application, filled with epoxies if there aesthetic isn't pleasing to design builder of the project. They can also be filled with wood, leather, stone, glass shard, metal and many other materials to effect pleasing contrast in textures...





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post #5 of 29 Old 01-30-2019, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Filling that void is probably the worse thing that could be done for the long term durability of the piece...as it will not allow for the seasonal movement that Cookies are known for. The ちぎりChigiri (aka Bow-tie) are the method for arresting the expansion of a crack by pulling it together with the geometry of the joinery yet also facilitate an appropriate amount of seasonal change in the wood...

I'm aware from previous conversations (see: Burl Table Top) with other OP's here on the forum Steve that you don't care for the look and function of ちぎりChigiri (aka Butterfly or Bowtie Joinery)...However, that does not change the fact that they are an acient and well proven joinery system intended for exactly the type of loads situations that "Cookies" present with.

They are more than strong enough and actually facilitate the Cookie with the seasonal expansion they will continue to go through. As to strength and durability, that is inherent to their geometry when properly placed, to the point of supporting the base of ships and water craft for many seasons of use. There is not to many items made of wood that takes a beating like the bow of a ship or its keel (see photos below.)

I can't strongly enough suggest...against...trying to freeze or arrest the Cookie from moving with epoxies, as this will not only place uneven stresses to new locations very often, but can also influence the way other finishes (if chosen) look and perform, but that's just my experience within the craft. As for the small voids, those can be, with moderation in application, filled with epoxies if there aesthetic isn't pleasing to design builder of the project. They can also be filled with wood, leather, stone, glass shard, metal and many other materials to effect pleasing contrast in textures...





It's more than appearance, in this case the bowtie is span across a void which is going to do little or nothing for the integrality of the cookie. If it's not going to help structurally I don't see the point in doing it. Might as well just fill it.
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post #6 of 29 Old 01-30-2019, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
It's more than appearance, in this case the bowtie is span across a void which is going to do little or nothing for the integrality of the cookie. If it's not going to help structurally I don't see the point in doing it. Might as well just fill it.
Steve, I believe you missed Jay's point/reasoning and I 'm going to agree with NOT filling.

1) I enjoy seeing these beautiful "rlver" epoxy tables and other ventures AND as long as they're between 2 boards running parallel there's very small amount of issues with movement long term as they all flow in same direction and the wood MC movement effects the least.

2) In a cookie it's a whole different world.....YES it can be filled BUT with limited time of best enjoyment until MC changes and the weakest AND the strongest point (filled void and it's BOTH in one, depends what direction the wood moves) becomes the "universal" destruction point......it causes MORE STREES than before and will FORCE new crack(s) somewhere.

3) It's already got a natural relief going so let it be the main go to point....I WILL NOT say another can't show up or appear as we don't know the rate it's moved ...from or going to stop at....WE KNOW as a fact IT WILL move!!!!!

4) Yes , we all have a different view/opinion on this BUT IF WE'D let the wood talk/show us (studying and experience) as a cookie it needs MORE flexibility.

5) the support/base/pedastal it sits on will determine the final strength/flatness of it's future.

I think in this case the long term movements need to be thought of for a future of endurance.
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
Steve, I believe you missed Jay's point/reasoning and I 'm going to agree with NOT filling.

1) I enjoy seeing these beautiful "rlver" epoxy tables and other ventures AND as long as they're between 2 boards running parallel there's very small amount of issues with movement long term as they all flow in same direction and the wood MC movement effects the least.

2) In a cookie it's a whole different world.....YES it can be filled BUT with limited time of best enjoyment until MC changes and the weakest AND the strongest point (filled void and it's BOTH in one, depends what direction the wood moves) becomes the "universal" destruction point......it causes MORE STREES than before and will FORCE new crack(s) somewhere.

3) It's already got a natural relief going so let it be the main go to point....I WILL NOT say another can't show up or appear as we don't know the rate it's moved ...from or going to stop at....WE KNOW as a fact IT WILL move!!!!!

4) Yes , we all have a different view/opinion on this BUT IF WE'D let the wood talk/show us (studying and experience) as a cookie it needs MORE flexibility.

5) the support/base/pedastal it sits on will determine the final strength/flatness of it's future.

I think in this case the long term movements need to be thought of for a future of endurance.
My comments about filling the voids were addressed to the OP who was thinking of filling the voids with epoxy already. It's not uncommon at all to see a void like that filled with epoxy to make the top surface whole. This is why if I were doing it I would have run a spline cutter on the inner part of the void to give a footing for the epoxy to bond to and fill that area. I think that would have been a more natural look than having bowties stuck in there.
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post #8 of 29 Old 01-30-2019, 07:52 PM
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Too the OP's query and points raised...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...It's more than appearance, in this case the bowtie is span across a void which is going to do little or nothing for the integrality of the cookie...
That would be like stating that the bow of a ship takes no shock loads as it crashes through waves...day in and day out as a working vessel...!!!???

As such, according to the statement above, the bow-tie used to hold the (Cookie) and the hull together (as well as the keel) are doing..."little or nothing for the integrity"...of either structure...

That is simply an untrue and inaccurate statement...

I seldom actually see bow-tie used that aren't part of the structural dynamic of where they are placed, either in ship hulls, Cookies, or other applications. That's not an opinion or a perspective about bow-tie that I am addressing here for the OP's (and other readers understanding)...it is a simple fact of physic, wood dynamics and nautical engineering...

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...If it's not going to help structurally I don't see the point in doing it. Might as well just fill it...
And that is the point...

It most certainly is structural as most bow-tie (all bow-tie?) are within the context of not only their given geometry but the reason they have been used historically...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...My comments about filling the voids were addressed to the OP who was thinking of filling the voids with epoxy already...
Understood...

And I would very strongly suggest that is not only inaccurate advise but ill advised as well, specifically for the reasons listed thus far. There are other remedies, and if the..."look"...of it being filled is a goal, then it must be facilitated in a way to still accommodate wood movement as much as possible (which is why the bow-tie is used in such pieces)...NOT FREEZING IT IN PLACE WITH EPOXY...especially since the bow-tie is also in the same location and working appropriately as it should...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...It's not uncommon at all to see a void like that filled with epoxy to make the top surface whole...
Yes...very true!

Large expanses of epoxy are found in pieces like "river tables" and similar applications. There are even examples of full encapsulation of pieces where the epoxy comprises over 80% of the volume of the piece...and that is precisely the point...Those are more about epoxy and resin work and less about "woodworking."

These types of installations are fabricated with the wood and epoxy working in concert with each other, when designed and fabricated properly. When not done properly and the wood is hindered or stopped from moving, then serious issues take place almost immediately...

In the case of the OP's query about filling major voids in his Cookie, that would be catastrophic if not done in such a fashion to still allow seasonal movement!!!

The expansion contraction characteristics of Cookies in general is radially imperfect and not distributed evenly at all over it's surface. As such, anytime the stresses are not allowed to accommodate themselves, they will just create more and more void spaces until the piece has either failed completely or it ends up "more epoxy" than actual wood...AKA: full encapsulation modalities and that's another topic entirely outside the context of "woodworking, " and more akin to plastic and resign casting arts...

I can have those discussion too, if the OP wishes it? I design and fabricate not only artificial wood, but stone and coral too, for vivarium-aquarium installations. Again, however, that's a different topic and art form with different standards and modalities of means, and material application.

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...This is why if I were doing it I would have run a spline cutter on the inner part of the void to give a footing for the epoxy to bond to and fill that area. I think that would have been a more natural look than having bow-ties stuck in there...
And...respectfully, that would have created major issues else where in the expansion coefficient of the cookie...and...precisely why one would (and should) use something like a bow-tie or similar jointing modality as these effectively accommodate the seasonal movement...that will!!!...take place...

As to your aesthetic aversion to "bow-tie" in general, that is a matter of design preference and is most certainly on a spectrum that must be respected, even though not a common view point aesthetically for most since bow-tie are (and have been historically) rather ubiquitous both in good practice and aesthetics of many crafts...

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post #9 of 29 Old 01-30-2019, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
That would be like stating that the bow of a ship takes no shock loads as it crashes through waves...day in and day out as a working vessel...!!!???

As such, according to the statement above, the bow-tie used to hold the (Cookie) and the hull together (as well as the keel) are doing..."little or nothing for the integrity"...of either structure...

That is simply an untrue and inaccurate statement...

I seldom actually see bow-tie used that aren't part of the structural dynamic of where they are placed, either in ship hulls, Cookies, or other applications. That's not an opinion or a perspective about bow-tie that I am addressing here for the OP's (and other readers understanding)...it is a simple fact of physic, wood dynamics and nautical engineering...



And that is the point...

It most certainly is structural as most bow-tie (all bow-tie?) are within the context of not only their given geometry but the reason they have been used historically...



Understood...

And I would very strongly suggest that is not only inaccurate advise but ill advised as well, specifically for the reasons listed thus far. There are other remedies, and if the..."look"...of it being filled is a goal, then it must be facilitated in a way to still accommodate wood movement as much as possible (which is why the bow-tie is used in such pieces)...NOT FREEZING IT IN PLACE WITH EPOXY...especially since the bow-tie is also in the same location and working appropriately as it should...



Yes...very true!

Large expanses of epoxy are found in pieces like "river tables" and similar applications. There are even examples of full encapsulation of pieces where the epoxy comprises over 80% of the volume of the piece...and that is precisely the point...Those are more about epoxy and resin work and less about "woodworking."

These types of installations are fabricated with the wood and epoxy working in concert with each other, when designed and fabricated properly. When not done properly and the wood is hindered or stopped from moving, then serious issues take place almost immediately...

In the case of the OP's query about filling major voids in his Cookie, that would be catastrophic if not done in such a fashion to still allow seasonal movement!!!

The expansion contraction characteristics of Cookies in general is radially imperfect and not distributed evenly at all over it's surface. As such, anytime the stresses are not allowed to accommodate themselves, they will just create more and more void spaces until the piece has either failed completely or it ends up "more epoxy" than actual wood...AKA: full encapsulation modalities and that's another topic entirely outside the context of "woodworking, " and more akin to plastic and resign casting arts...

I can have those discussion too, if the OP wishes it? I design and fabricate not only artificial wood, but stone and coral too, for vivarium-aquarium installations. Again, however, that's a different topic and art form with different standards and modalities of means, and material application.



And...respectfully, that would have created major issues else where in the expansion coefficient of the cookie...and...precisely why one would (and should) use something like a bow-tie or similar jointing modality as these effectively accommodate the seasonal movement...that will!!!...take place...

As to your aesthetic aversion to "bow-tie" in general, that is a matter of design preference and is most certainly on a spectrum that must be respected, even though not a common view point aesthetically for most since bow-tie are (and have been historically) rather ubiquitous both in good practice and aesthetics of many crafts...
There is a considerable difference between the hull of a ship and the cookie shown. The cookie is gapped wide open with just the ends of the bowtie cut into the wood. In the event of wood movement the bowties would just tear out. I never said a bowtie doesn't have it's purpose, it's just not appropriate for this application.

As far as allowing for wood movement, a fill with epoxy functionally wouldn't be any different than a bowtie. Since when does a piece of wood installed perpendicular to the grain of the wood allow for wood movement.

In the end if the cookie isn't seasoned enough there will be stresses there and the wood is going to crack further regardless of what is done.
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Quote:
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...There is a considerable difference between the hull of a ship and the cookie shown...
No Sir...respectfully you are very much incorrect with that observation I would suggest. There virtually isn't any difference at all between the two...!!!

Not if anyone actually takes the time and a clear look at the pictures provided. It is precisely why I selected this example of Japanese fishing boat to illustrate the facts about "cookies" in the first place as the example for this OP (and other readers) to understand how this joinery works...and...how dynamically useful they are precisely the way the OP used it...

Okinawa サバニ (Sabani) fishing boat of the Ryukyu Archipelago very often have there Aft and/or Bow constructed from...END GRAIN...exactly like a Cookie. There is absolutely no difference at all...The only actual difference is these types of water craft take a hell of a lot more punishment within their service life than a coffee table ever will!!!

Below is a very old (over 100 years of service?) and well used サバニ (Sabani) that is now retired and resting in a museum. Anyone can clearly see the end grain and the repairs rendered over the decades of hard use...


True authentic サバニ (Sabani) do not use iron in their construction as this shortens the service life of the vessel, and isn't as strong as all wood joinery in there hull assembly...Rather they employ, as an integral structural part of there joinery system, the ubiquitous ちぎり Chigiri (aka: bow-tie)...which in boat building, is called フンドゥー (Fundo~ū) They are so special to the craft and the culture behind these vessels that "charms" are often made of them, as without them this style (and related) water craft would not exist...





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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...The cookie is gapped wide open with just the ends of the bowtie cut into the wood. In the event of wood movement the bowties would just tear out.
Again Steve, just making statements does not somehow make them true...?!...when they are utterly incorrect and not valid in the reality of the practice of how this joinery system works and evolved through history.

Sorry, but you are flatly wrong with this assertion...and it would be no different than me claiming 1+1=3...?!...both are inaccurate...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...I never said a bowtie doesn't have it's purpose, it's just not appropriate for this application.
I will leave that one to you as it is clearly an opinion that you hold...

I will state for the record (and the other readers) that it is clearly incorrect and I have provided more than enough empirical evidence to illustrate it...as well as (I think) probably more experience than most on this forum in the construction of folk arts that use green wood, and vernacular water craft that use "end grain," but I could be wrong on that point possibly?

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...As far as allowing for wood movement, a fill with epoxy functionally wouldn't be any different than a bowtie. Since when does a piece of wood installed perpendicular to the grain of the wood allow for wood movement...
If you can't see the difference, than I'm certainly not going to try and convince you to see it....

There is, a huge difference between the two, and again, I think I have outlined those differences more than enough at this point unless others have questions...

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...In the end if the cookie isn't seasoned enough there will be stresses there and the wood is going to crack further regardless of what is done...
Well...since I'm the one here that actually works in "green wood" and the vernacular folk arts of this, and related modalities, I can emphatically state that the above comment (in my experience) is not true at all, nor have I ever had issues with "cracks"...Including full cookie rounds, well relaxed (as described in other posts) that never developed "pie splits" at all...!!!
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WOW Jay !!!! I enjoyed the history lesson with ALL the facts /pictures to back it.....anyone that wants to argue with the history and facts of things done correctly with a long track record of holding together doesn't want the truth. Wood has been indepthly studied for so many centuries and thousands of years. I still think our failure rates are from NOT studying the past in depth ESPECIALLY in wood and it's character and movement.

Again THANKS !!!!!

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I lived on Okinawa for 3 years, and had the great opportunity to work beside several joinery craftsman in Torii Station, loved it. have you been to Japan? I am obviously not as well versed in the culture as you!


are those screws in the board across the top of the stern in the top photo? must have been some young whipper-snapper sneak in to do that!!!


the one image of the end-grain stern appeared almost to be dovetailed. I suppose they are similar in some ways...
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...I lived on Okinawa for 3 years, and had the great opportunity to work beside several joinery craftsman in Torii Station, loved it. have you been to Japan? I am obviously not as well versed in the culture as you!
Hi Tim,

Thank you for the kind words...

Yes Sir, a long time ago...I presume you are (were?) Army? I'm now an old "inactive" Marine myself (Semper Fi) and had an exposure to Japan long before this (1966.) I now just have an extensive collection of friends and collegues that work in the Asian modalities of craft. I actually have a niche within Asian "folk styles) within architecture like Japanese Minka (as one example.)

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...are those screws in the board across the top of the stern in the top photo? must have been some young whipper-snapper sneak in to do that!!!
I'm very please you noticed that board...!!!

It speaks to an aspect of my professional work that is very dear to me..."PROPER"...Historic Restoration and Conservation of antiquities!!!

Many alleged "furniture restorers" (as one example) aren't that at all...Most are nothing more than woodworkers that..."work on"...old furniture. Mind you, some are extremely talented woodworkers, but woodworkers nonetheless, and nothing more. Many actually cause more harm than good to our historic fabrics of antiquity. Few actually meet the professional qualifications to be actual Historic Preservationists, nor do the follow the ethos to do work to the standards you would typically find in a museum or finer collections, and many actually (as stated) cause a great deal of damage with their work and refinishing methods...

Why is this important and what does it have to do with that board?

Well, that board represents a very distinct demarcation of a "conservation repair" in as much anyone can plainly see that it is blindingly obvious not any form of original work...and...(most importantly) it is "reversible" with easy and little harm to the original historic fabric of the vessel. (note: Historic Fabric can be anything from actual "fabric" to wood or stone...etc...Its anything in the generic sense that is...old and/or original to an artifact construction itself.)

Because many of these サバニ (Sabani) are very old, and so few of the original traditional Shipwrights are left to repair them, the better examples end up in collections like the one I pulled that photo from. Fortunately there are those that are studying them now and some are very talented themselves. Douglas Brooks (Author of: Japanese Wooden Boatbuilding," )is one such talented woodworkers and a dear friend of mine. His efforts are commendable and speak to the need of our generation in protecting this most acient of wood vessel history...Thankfully many young folk are picking up many of these old and acient styles of work and the knowledge that goes with it...


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...the one image of the end-grain stern appeared almost to be dovetailed. I suppose they are similar in some ways...
You saw that correctly...!!!...Good eye!!!

That photo is of a rare and apex style as it has been related to me. It is an excellent example of how these vessels are made...and...germane to this conversation, just what can be done with "Cookies" and what the best joinery methods for them happen to be...among several other traditional variation and methods...

I will start a new post on this topic not to detract further from David's conversation here. I will post once more after this, unless David has a direct question I may address, otherwise the other new discussion found under: "Bow-Tie or Butterfly Joinery Systems," should be where we take this part of the conversation...
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...I've been working on this red oak (I think) cookie slab to use as a coffee table...
Hello David,

First, let me apologize for perhaps taking your post off track a bit...I hope you will forgive me and found at least the links and some of the information of practical use to you?

I would, at this time, like to commend you on the work you presented here with your photo of the "Cookie" and you most excellent work in placing those Butterfly Joints in just about a perfect location!!! Without "dissecting" your work further (which I really could not do well from just one photo) I must say you sure do have the beginnings of a gorgeous Coffee Table!!!

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Originally Posted by David Cano Mejia View Post
...I wanted to use an epoxy resin to fill the cracks and prevent dust from getting stuck in there. Question #1: Do you guys think I should epoxy fill the large crack with the bowties to prevent things from falling through?

Maybe only out to the small bowtie?

Out to the larger one?

Out to the edge of the table?
No...I do not think you should at all!!!

From an aesthetic perceptive, I think it will detract from the lovely joinery work you have done. Nor do I think "plastics" belong on such work, or within this style of work.

There is a place for epoxy in woodworking, yet from my perceptive, its few and far between...and...it is very specific in application and modality. Its not just a matter of mixing any old epoxy you can get your hands on and "going for it."

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Originally Posted by David Cano Mejia View Post
...Also, I am not a fan of glossy epoxy finishes and the wife is not a fan of how orange a natural finish looks on oak, so I was thinking of using a natural looking stain and a very light application of maybe a gray stain to give it a cooler tone. Anyways, for a durable finish that will be resistant to water stains and normal coffee table usage, as well as something that won't disagree with the stain and the epoxy fills, Question #2: Should I use shellac, laquer, or poly?
I don't promote or use "plastic finishes" on 99.9% of the work I do (or help with) typically. It just does not have a place in fine woodworking (in my view of it) as it can never develop the intrinsic and beautiful patinas that we fine in the acient forms still remaining with us today...

A natural blend of traditional oils, waxes and plant resins would be my recommendation for a finish and no stain at all. Test samples will give you a guide to what you and your wife may find pleasing?

Let me know if I can expand on anything?
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-31-2019, 11:25 PM
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OP = David: you still here?


I'd load the cracks 50% -70% with black pigmented acrylic.
Then I'd load the top with crushed stone (turquoise? quartz? amythest?)and a clear matrix.

Go see the fiberglas boat people for goop.
*** add some flake gold leaf for sparkle.


Turn the faults into features. The stone colors that I mention would all compliment gray.


The best part is that crushed stone is really cheap when compared with gem-sized pieces.
DON'T use brass dust from the hardware store key-cutting machines. Even washed, it looks dirty.
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-31-2019, 11:55 PM
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So am I to conclude from this thread that wooden bow ties were around way before macaroni bow ties and tuxedos?
Those ancients really had it going on.
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post #17 of 29 Old 02-01-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
No Sir...respectfully you are very much incorrect with that observation I would suggest. There virtually isn't any difference at all between the two...!!!

Not if anyone actually takes the time and a clear look at the pictures provided. It is precisely why I selected this example of Japanese fishing boat to illustrate the facts about "cookies" in the first place as the example for this OP (and other readers) to understand how this joinery works...and...how dynamically useful they are precisely the way the OP used it...

Okinawa サバニ (Sabani) fishing boat of the Ryukyu Archipelago very often have there Aft and/or Bow constructed from...END GRAIN...exactly like a Cookie. There is absolutely no difference at all...The only actual difference is these types of water craft take a hell of a lot more punishment within their service life than a coffee table ever will!!!

Below is a very old (over 100 years of service?) and well used サバニ (Sabani) that is now retired and resting in a museum. Anyone can clearly see the end grain and the repairs rendered over the decades of hard use...


True authentic サバニ (Sabani) do not use iron in their construction as this shortens the service life of the vessel, and isn't as strong as all wood joinery in there hull assembly...Rather they employ, as an integral structural part of there joinery system, the ubiquitous ちぎり Chigiri (aka: bow-tie)...which in boat building, is called フンドゥー (Fundo~ū) They are so special to the craft and the culture behind these vessels that "charms" are often made of them, as without them this style (and related) water craft would not exist...







Again Steve, just making statements does not somehow make them true...?!...when they are utterly incorrect and not valid in the reality of the practice of how this joinery system works and evolved through history.

Sorry, but you are flatly wrong with this assertion...and it would be no different than me claiming 1+1=3...?!...both are inaccurate...



I will leave that one to you as it is clearly an opinion that you hold...

I will state for the record (and the other readers) that it is clearly incorrect and I have provided more than enough empirical evidence to illustrate it...as well as (I think) probably more experience than most on this forum in the construction of folk arts that use green wood, and vernacular water craft that use "end grain," but I could be wrong on that point possibly?



If you can't see the difference, than I'm certainly not going to try and convince you to see it....

There is, a huge difference between the two, and again, I think I have outlined those differences more than enough at this point unless others have questions...



Well...since I'm the one here that actually works in "green wood" and the vernacular folk arts of this, and related modalities, I can emphatically state that the above comment (in my experience) is not true at all, nor have I ever had issues with "cracks"...Including full cookie rounds, well relaxed (as described in other posts) that never developed "pie splits" at all...!!!
Again, what you are saying has nothing to do with what I posted. I've done everything but draw you a picture and connect the dots for you. You are going to have to figure this one out for yourself.
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post #18 of 29 Old 02-01-2019, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Again, what you are saying has nothing to do with what I posted. I've done everything but draw you a picture and connect the dots for you. You are going to have to figure this one out for yourself.
Steve, respectfully Sir...

You have absolutely..."drawn nothing"...let alone pictures or photographs...

Please, by all means, do Sir. Show the OP and readers pictures of your (or collegues) work with Cookies and how they have "blow apart" because of Bow-tie joinery applications or any other illustrations that support your contentions. You have actually offered nothing but words, and of those, inaccurate ones in both modality and description...

I went...item by item...through your entire post, (for the purpose of clarity for the OP and other readers) following your direct quoted comments...then addressing each one incrementally, clearly and succinctly about each of you intended points. This was done clearly enough that other readers..."connected the dots"...without any issue at all...

Obtuse and obscure comments like the one offered above is nonsensical and not constructive to a erudite conversation...or even healthy debate.

We can disagree, respectfully on matters of opinion...I have no issue with that...Nevertheless, when blatantly false, inaccurate or obtuse information is presented...I will respond every time (respectfully) to address each point (as I did) that outlines those discrepancies and inaccuracies...

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post #19 of 29 Old 02-02-2019, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Steve, respectfully Sir...

You have absolutely..."drawn nothing"...let alone pictures or photographs...

Please, by all means, do Sir. Show the OP and readers pictures of your (or collegues) work with Cookies and how they have "blow apart" because of Bow-tie joinery applications or any other illustrations that support your contentions. You have actually offered nothing but words, and of those, inaccurate ones in both modality and description...

I went...item by item...through your entire post, (for the purpose of clarity for the OP and other readers) following your direct quoted comments...then addressing each one incrementally, clearly and succinctly about each of you intended points. This was done clearly enough that other readers..."connected the dots"...without any issue at all...

Obtuse and obscure comments like the one offered above is nonsensical and not constructive to a erudite conversation...or even healthy debate.

We can disagree, respectfully on matters of opinion...I have no issue with that...Nevertheless, when blatantly false, inaccurate or obtuse information is presented...I will respond every time (respectfully) to address each point (as I did) that outlines those discrepancies and inaccuracies...
It's so basically simple. When you see what I see you will understand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Again, what you are saying has nothing to do with what I posted. I've done everything but draw you a picture and connect the dots for you. You are going to have to figure this one out for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
It's so basically simple. When you see what I see you will understand
So sorry, but I am not following your thoughts either. I tried to figure it out for myself, but I don't get it. Like Jay, I must lack the necessary experience and intuition to understand.
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