Delta 36-725 measure fence alignment - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 04-11-2019, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Delta 36-725 measure fence alignment

Hi!

I am a happy owner of Delta 36-725 and I noticed when I do a rip cut there is a space between blade and fence after the cut. Visually it looks like 1mm between blade and fence where riving knife. But at the beginning of cut there is no space.

So I measured it using caliper and everything looks fine (miter slot <-> fence and miter slot <-> blade). I watched bunch of youtube videos how to do that and I think I got it.


So I wanted to be more precise and I purchased dial indicator and I have a problem. It is so sensitive, each time I measure the same thing I have different reading. It is because I don't know how to mount it so it is super steady. I mounted it on Delta miter gauge but when I press miter gauge down indicator changes reading.



So the question is, do you have any good way to mount it somehow so it is easy to measure?
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post #2 of 29 Old 04-11-2019, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mentosik83 View Post
Hi!

I am a happy owner of Delta 36-725 and I noticed when I do a rip cut there is a space between blade and fence after the cut. Visually it looks like 1mm between blade and fence where riving knife. But at the beginning of cut there is no space.

So I measured it using caliper and everything looks fine (miter slot <-> fence and miter slot <-> blade). I watched bunch of youtube videos how to do that and I think I got it.


So I wanted to be more precise and I purchased dial indicator and I have a problem. It is so sensitive, each time I measure the same thing I have different reading. It is because I don't know how to mount it so it is super steady. I mounted it on Delta miter gauge but when I press miter gauge down indicator changes reading.



So the question is, do you have any good way to mount it somehow so it is easy to measure?
Don't you mean there is space between the board and the fence? If the fence is parallel with the miter slots it sounds more like the riving knife is a little too far to the left pulling the board away from the fence. The riving knife should be exactly centered with the blade so in theory it doesn't interfere with the operation of the saw.
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post #3 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 10:02 AM
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A dial indicator tool is not required for woodworking. The tolerances in woodworking do not need to be measured to that accuracy. As you are seeing, it can cause confusion.


George
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post #4 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
A dial indicator tool is not required for woodworking. The tolerances in woodworking do not need to be measured to that accuracy. As you are seeing, it can cause confusion.


George
Agree, great way to spend a while chasing your tail, main question is, how does the saw function, if it works don't fix it.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
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post #5 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 01:00 PM
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if the "chunk" you use to hold the dial indicator has slop in the miter slot, you'll get slop in the readings. that simple.
there are pretty machined holders, or you can make your own from scraps. just be sure it is snug in the miter slot.

also - wipe/clean all the plastic pads on the fence and make sure you're not plowing thru piles of sawdust. very tiny differences at the rail are amplified at the other end of the fence.

check you riving knife alignment. particularly a problem on Delta because their riving knives are thicker than many of the 'thin kerf' blades of today.

the dial indicator is the fastest, easiest, mos convenient way to check saw blade run out, saw blade alignment, riving knife alignment and plumb and the fence alignment.

my 36-725 fence is very stable with 0.005" or less total misalignment. this is more than adequate - there's no real need to futz around trying to get zero.
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post #6 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 04:28 PM
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I did what you did but used some sort of steel brace (Hack saw to remove bend) riveted to a piece of 3/4 aluminum bar. I used a Crescent wrench to put a slight bend in the aluminum bar. Obviously the aluminum bar didn't fit well but after 20 or 30 strokes up and down the miter slot it now slides reasonably well.

I used a magnetic base and dial indicator from HF. With this setup I aligned the Biesemeyer fence to the saw. Oh blasphemy, I aligned the fence about 0.005 inches wide at the rear, just as a safety factor. I don't ever recall making a cut longer than a few inches to the left of the blade so pinching isn't a problem. But everyone is wondering if the HF dial indicator is accurate? The accuracy doesn't matter. What is important is that the DI is repeatable.

BTW - IIRC the cost of the steel brace and 3/4 aluminum bar cost more than the DI set up.

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post #7 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys for replies! I will try to measure it one more time with Toms way, I found a video on YT from "The Newbie Woodworker" but I don't like idea to put a plywood instead of a blade and then measure it. And then - when/if I fail I will just use caliper again to be sure and check riving knife.

Peter
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post #8 of 29 Old 04-12-2019, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
A dial indicator tool is not required for woodworking. The tolerances in woodworking do not need to be measured to that accuracy. As you are seeing, it can cause confusion.


George
Other than setting up a jointer for perfect cuts on your outfeed table, I agree the dial indicator is not very useful for woodworking. It’s too precise.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #9 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 07:35 AM
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Before you get too carried away with the blade/miter slot/fence thing, run a 4 to 5 ' long piece of plywood through the saw. Then measure the width of the cut board and see if you get the same measurements near the leading edge and trailing edges. If all is the same then both edges of the cut board are parallel and all is good.

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post #10 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 08:56 AM
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Yes, and No .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
A dial indicator tool is not required for woodworking. The tolerances in woodworking do not need to be measured to that accuracy. As you are seeing, it can cause confusion.
George

Certainly, you aren't going to measure your work with a dial indicator, but rather a steel rule or tape measure as you build things. However, the more precise you can set up your machine, the better results you will get AND that is exactly the reason there are dial indicators for measuring blade to slot dimensions all over the woodworking market.


Just follow the money as they say, but the reason is they work very well. I don't use one personally, for that purpose and I have several. I use a tri-square and marked tooth and my eyesight and the sound I hear for setting the blade to slot on my table saws. By setting this single relationship as accurately as possible, you can be assured that no other issues will come up later ... burned wood, kickbacks from out of aligned blade, etc. There are many ways that this is done:
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ment+table+saw


Jointer blades and planer blades also need accurate setup and accurate measurements. and most often the manufacturer recommends the use of a dial indicator for those machine set ups.

One blade that is further extended than all the others, even by a few thousands will become the initial cutter and will wear and dull more rapidly. My advice is to get the machines tuned as accurately as practical and then move on to making sawdust .........

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #11 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 11:53 AM
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It seems part of the fun of amateur woodworking for many is tuning up the machines with as many gadgets as possible, which is fine as long as they don't expect to be taken too seriously by those of us following the "KISS" principle.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
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post #12 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 01:19 PM
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using a dial indicator is the absolute epitome of KISS.


holding a combo square, keep a steady pressure, don't cock it!, make sure it's flat, , , , fumbling with a feeler gauge - oh crap! the square moved . . . . really?

how many hands (one's) got?



the argument that a dial indicator is "too accurate" implies the same logic as a framing carpenter saying, since he only works to +/- 1/4 inch, tape measures with 1/16 graduations are not suitable for use in his work.
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post #13 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 02:16 PM
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If you can do as Woodnthings stated, "I use a tri-square and marked tooth and my eyesight and the sound I hear for setting the blade to slot on my table saws." then you will do well with a dial gauge as well, but you have to have the "feel for it".

The easy part is measuring, having that "feel" to move that part "jist a jista", as my father used to say, is what separates the men from the boys.

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Last edited by FrankC; 04-13-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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post #14 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 05:15 PM
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Accuracy in aligning the fence and blade of a table saw depends upon what are you trying to sell. Seriously.

What am I trying to sell? Safety and you keeping all ten.

I've been to woodworking shows where they're selling saw blades. The demonstrator is holding about an 8 inch piece of cherry just ripped but not clear of the blade. He's spouting off about how great the blade is because it doesn't burn cherry. If you look closely, you can see that the fence is splayed wide just a skosh.

If you set the fence too tight you're open for a kick back. If you set the fence too loose your cuts will be sloppy and also a bit kick back prone.

So a dial indicator with magnetic base is over kill, maybe. But for $40 or $50 I have the ability to set up my saw safely.

Rich
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post #15 of 29 Old 04-13-2019, 10:31 PM
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The more precise you measure, the farther it has to drift before it falls out of the tolerance range that is acceptable to the "good-enough-is-good-enough" people. It is about diminishing returns. If you can get much better accuracy with hardly any extra effort, that sounds like a win-win to me, especially if it reduces how often you need to recalibrate.

Whatever tool you use, you have to learn how to use it and how to interpret the results. If you use a feeler gauge, then understand its precision and how to interpret the wavering needle (or readout).
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post #16 of 29 Old 04-14-2019, 08:11 AM
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This is what is referred to as 'picking fly $hi* out of pepper'.
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post #17 of 29 Old 04-14-2019, 10:09 AM
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This is what is referred to as 'picking fly $hi* out of pepper'.
Would you please explain or clarify your comment? I do not understand.
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post #18 of 29 Old 04-14-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post

Whatever tool you use, you have to learn how to use it and how to interpret the results. If you use a feeler gauge, then understand its precision and how to interpret the wavering needle (or readout).
I have been looking at my feeler gauge for a while now and can't see a needle or readout to waiver, what am I missing?.

My entire career has been working around machinery, and I can tell you, it ain't the tools it is the ability of the person using them.

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post #19 of 29 Old 04-14-2019, 12:11 PM
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OH, man ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
I have been looking at my feeler gauge for a while now and can't see a needle or readout to waiver, what am I missing?.

My entire career has been working around machinery, and I can tell you, it ain't the tools it is the ability of the person using them.

I keep forgetting to charge the batteries in my feeler gauge. No wonder the needle won't stay on zero.....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #20 of 29 Old 04-14-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
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Would you please explain or clarify your comment? I do not understand.
Simply put, you are looking at something that is quite miniscule in comparison to the whole picture. There are deviations and variations in gauge accuracy, miter slot accuracy and the the mounting of the gauge in the miterslot not to mention imperfections in the surface of the blade and the fence with various pressure being applied to it when all you have to do is see if your board has parallel surfaces after the cut. If your tape cant see the difference, you are good to go. If there is a difference, then make adjustments to the fence. It's really that simple. It's the end result of the cut that counts, not how you got there.
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