Darn Trolls struck again..... - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
That looks more like a nipple then a wheel.
OK then...do we know for sure who invented the nipple?





.
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post #22 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg in Maryland

Richard, you need to get out of the shop more often and find a bosom to nuzzle up to 'cuz if that is your idea of what a nipple looks like you are in real trouble.

Greg
That's Wilma flintstones nipple.
Laughing!!!!!


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post #23 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg in Maryland View Post
Richard, you need to get out of the shop more often and find a bosom to nuzzle up to 'cuz if that is your idea of what a nipple looks like you are in real trouble.

Greg
Look I didn't say it was a good looking one but that is one.

Damn I should have just let you think it was a wheel.

Last edited by rrbrown; 12-04-2012 at 08:53 PM.
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post #24 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg in Maryland View Post
Richard, you need to get out of the shop more often and find a bosom to nuzzle up to 'cuz if that is your idea of what a nipple looks like you are in real trouble.

Greg
...or give lotion for Christmas...


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post #25 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 10:55 PM
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Those are my plans on Sawtooth Ideas

My name is Ralph Bagnall and I am the one selling the Insert Throat Plate Plans on Sawtooth Ideas.

The fine folks at Sawtooth brought this thread to my attention, so I signed up here to respond.

I can easily prove that I did not 'steal' your idea. If you look at the October 2010 issue of Woodworker's Journal magazine, photos for the Envelope Table article I wrote that appears in that issue clearly shows my throat plate being used. That article was published in September 2010, but the photos were actually taken in 2009. Hence, I did NOT steal your idea.

I ALSO am not claiming that the original idea was mine. Norm Abrahms, in the early years of his show "The New Yankee Workshop" used a commercially available version of this insert throat plate. The body was aluminum with wood inserts. I do not recall who made it, but it cost about $200.00 back in the 90's so it did not survive long.

I upgraded the idea using drawer lock bit to create the profiled slot rather than a simple dovetail. The profile is more accurate and resists jamming that can occur in dovetail slots.

I am sorry if you got upset over this issue, but I might caution you that very few ideas are actually original and calling me a troll online without really knowing the facts is rude.

I also might want to point out that if you want to create plans for your own version and sell them, knock yourself out! I own the copyright to those exact plans, not to the idea or any variation of it. My writing and printing plans is no different than the above mentioned Envelope Table article. I did not invent the table and can claim no rights to it, but I DO own the rights to the article as printed and can sue someone who copies it for profit. I cannot however stop you from building your own, and selling plans in your own words using your own images. In fact, I encourage you!

Please feel free to contact me if you have questions on this: [email protected]

If you want to view the Envelope Table mentioned above, you can download a PDF version for free from my website at: http://www.consultingwoodworker.com/published_articles

Ralph

Last edited by Handi; 12-04-2012 at 11:18 PM. Reason: Typos
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post #26 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 11:38 PM
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Ralph thanks for responding and we pretty much had figured that out by now.

Well you joined and if you poke around you may like it and stay.
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post #27 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 11:51 PM
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Actually this worked out quite well

We have 2 new members who are interested in woodworking, a resolution and clarification of a potential issue, and a site which may prove useful to those who have ideas/plans to promote. It's all good!

Now back to who invented the wheel...

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #28 of 38 Old 12-04-2012, 11:54 PM
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No offense, Fabian, but that basic throat plate with a dovetailed insert has been around for as long as I've been a woodworker, 45 yrs. and probably much longer. They are also used on RAS. You may have come up with the idea on your own but it's a solution any experienced woodworker could come up with. You actually ripped someone else off but you didn't know it.
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post #29 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 12:02 AM
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another variation on inserts

I acme up with this idea for a zero clearance insert into an existing throat plate. The stock old style Craftsman plates are quite thin, about 1/8" so here's what I did, feel free to copy:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/m...-insert-10147/

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-05-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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post #30 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 01:17 AM Thread Starter
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Wow! I'm impressed.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SawtoothRuss View Post
Hi Fabian,

I'm the President & Co-founder of Sawtooth Ideas. I was just made aware of this thread and I wanted to pass along that we are looking into this issue. It is very important to us to avoid facilitating piracy.

Whenever someone posts on our site we do a search on the Internet to detect any obvious piracy because it is against the terms of use of our website. In this particular case we found that the person who uploaded the plan was already selling the plan on the Internet and had posted a YouTube video on the project Jan 4, 2012. I don't have any notes that we found your project at that time.

However, we just compared the details of your project with that of the poster. We found that the details of the project are sufficiently different between your post and this plan that it is not obvious that one was derived from the other. The results are similar but the construction is documented very differently.

I have asked that the individual take a look at this thread and comment himself.

Please contact me if you have any more information that we should take into account. With the information we currently have, it is not clear that we should remove the project. Do you agree?

Thanks,
Russ
I appreciate your prompt attention to this matter. I did end up downloading the plan off the site to "investigate" it further, and saw the differences. I know I didn't invent this idea, and Ralph did a fine job of documenting on how to make that insert. There is no harm here, as far as I am concerned. I gotta say though, that your fast response was very impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
It's possible that it was coincidental...maybe not. Even a patent doesn't protect the inventor. Patents can cost up the wazoo. All someone has to do is change the original sightly.
I hear you there Cabinetman... I have investigated the whole patent procedure, and it is more money then I want to spend. Alot of my ideas are "trade-specific," and I don't know exactly what the demand would be, so I don't think my return on investment would be worth it, even with me having working prototypes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handi View Post
My name is Ralph Bagnall and I am the one selling the Insert Throat Plate Plans on Sawtooth Ideas.

The fine folks at Sawtooth brought this thread to my attention, so I signed up here to respond.

I can easily prove that I did not 'steal' your idea. If you look at the October 2010 issue of Woodworker's Journal magazine, photos for the Envelope Table article I wrote that appears in that issue clearly shows my throat plate being used. That article was published in September 2010, but the photos were actually taken in 2009. Hence, I did NOT steal your idea.

I ALSO am not claiming that the original idea was mine. Norm Abrahms, in the early years of his show "The New Yankee Workshop" used a commercially available version of this insert throat plate. The body was aluminum with wood inserts. I do not recall who made it, but it cost about $200.00 back in the 90's so it did not survive long.

I upgraded the idea using drawer lock bit to create the profiled slot rather than a simple dovetail. The profile is more accurate and resists jamming that can occur in dovetail slots.

I am sorry if you got upset over this issue, but I might caution you that very few ideas are actually original and calling me a troll online without really knowing the facts is rude.

I also might want to point out that if you want to create plans for your own version and sell them, knock yourself out! I own the copyright to those exact plans, not to the idea or any variation of it. My writing and printing plans is no different than the above mentioned Envelope Table article. I did not invent the table and can claim no rights to it, but I DO own the rights to the article as printed and can sue someone who copies it for profit. I cannot however stop you from building your own, and selling plans in your own words using your own images. In fact, I encourage you!

Please feel free to contact me if you have questions on this: [email protected]

If you want to view the Envelope Table mentioned above, you can download a PDF version for free from my website at: http://www.consultingwoodworker.com/published_articles

Ralph
Thank you for your prompt response to this matter, too. There are distinct differences from your version, and mine, as I have stated above. I did end up downloading your version (which I paid for) to check it out, and you did a really good job of explaining how to make the ZC insert. IF all your plans are that thorough, then you sell a great product that most guys would benefit from, especially the novices. I apologize for calling you a troll, as I have found out that I used the wrong "nickname" for what I was trying to get across. I have to admit that my emotions got the best of me, and many have pointed out that I basically just "reinvented the wheel," yet again.

I hope that you and Russ accept my apologies, and we can move on.





Now, Richard, Thank you for helping bring all of this to light, and really trying to protect our forum. That is awesome that you are taking the time to do a job that is usually thankless, and takes alot of time out of your busy life. Thanks again..... Now, about that wheel that you thought looked like a body part.....

After all this is said and done, I kind of feel embarassed by all of it....

Fabian

I used to be fairly indecisive, but now....... I'm not so sure.
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post #31 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 09:01 AM
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Fabian,

We all make mistakes, the measure of a man is how he deals with them when he discovers them. You have acquitted yourself well in this case and I thank you.

I also thank you for the kind words about my plans! I have been woodworking professionally for nearly 30 years, started writing for the magazines about 12 years ago, and often teach woodworking at local stores. I have even had the honor of presenting seminars at IWF.

I try to share as much as I can, all my published articles are available on my website for download, and I often get cool stuff from manufacturers to give away to my newsletter subscribers.

I invite any of you to visit my site and see all the free stuff (and stuff for sale) that is available there.

Ralph
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post #32 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 11:49 AM
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This whole matter and the way it was handeled is why this forum is what I consider the TOP one! Welcome to the forum Ralph and I hope that you stay with us. There are a lot of sincere, dedicated, knowledgeable people here for guys like me to learn from. You are all Gentlemen!
Thank you!
Smokey

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A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
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post #33 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 12:32 PM
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Thanks Ralph for joining in on the discussion! I thought it would be worth expanding on Ralph's comments.

Here is what we have learned about woodworking and idea protection since we started Sawtooth Ideas... The design, structure or appearance of a project is rarely protectable unless there is a patent. The only exception to this, that I am aware of, is when the design is iconic for the creator (This is what Apple claims about the iPhone for example).

Design documents, however, are protectable. If you publish a document about your design and you mark the document as copyrighted then it is yours and no one can copy it.

There is a good discussion of this by Custom Made's legal council here.

Generally speaking, it is a good idea to ask for permission if you intend to create a derivative work. So says the copyright site of the U.S. Government and it makes sense to me.

Russ
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post #34 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
That looks more like a nipple then a wheel.
Now we know where you have your mind.

LOL

George
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post #35 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 04:30 PM
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Now we know where you have your mind.

LOL

George
You know what, I showed that post to like 5 other people. Three of which agree with me. To couldn't believe I was wasting there time with it.
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post #36 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
You know what, I showed that post to like 5 other people. Three of which agree with me. To couldn't believe I was wasting there time with it.
I think that only proves that three out of five of your friends forget what a nipple looks like

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post #37 of 38 Old 12-05-2012, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SawtoothRuss View Post
Thanks Ralph for joining in on the discussion! I thought it would be worth expanding on Ralph's comments.

Here is what we have learned about woodworking and idea protection since we started Sawtooth Ideas... The design, structure or appearance of a project is rarely protectable unless there is a patent. The only exception to this, that I am aware of, is when the design is iconic for the creator (This is what Apple claims about the iPhone for example).

Design documents, however, are protectable. If you publish a document about your design and you mark the document as copyrighted then it is yours and no one can copy it.

There is a good discussion of this by Custom Made's legal council here.

Generally speaking, it is a good idea to ask for permission if you intend to create a derivative work. So says the copyright site of the U.S. Government and it makes sense to me.

Russ
Thanks for the links, Russ. In the past, there have been a few discussions regarding this matter, so now we have a resource in which to refer to.

Fabian

I used to be fairly indecisive, but now....... I'm not so sure.
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post #38 of 38 Old 12-06-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg in Maryland View Post
Richard, you need to get out of the shop more often and find a bosom to nuzzle up to 'cuz if that is your idea of what a nipple looks like you are in real trouble.

Greg
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