I want to make some small square pegs for tenon joints on a small project. I have a bunch of black piano keys which I believe to be ebony, which I would like to use for the pegs. So I want to cut some 1/4" or 5/16" square stock from one or more of the keys, and I'm trying to determine the best way to do this.
My 2 thoughts so far:
1. Glue a key to a larger, easier to handle, piece of wood, then make appropriate cuts down the length of the key to leave the square pieces to fall off. (hope this makes sense)
2. I have a Grr-Ripper with the 1/8" accessory leg that I could use to saw the key lengthwise into the pieces I need. But I'm concerned about the stability of such narrow stock on the table saw, and I'd probably need to make or buy a zero clearance insert, which I currently don't have.
Any other thoughts & suggestions would be welcome!
If you are cutting small stock unless you are using a sled that is in essence a zero clearance insert, you need to install one no matter what method you are using.
Of the two mentioned No.1 sounds more feasible to me.
No bandsaw? On a table saw the blade kerf alone, even if a thin kerf blade, will eliminate an awful lot of material.
Yes, as Frank said, #1 is the safest way to make your cuts. You will absolutely need a zero clearance insert or sled or your piece will get gobbled up post- haste.
But you should invest in a zero clearance insert on general principles anyway. You'll never go back to the big gap!
Use a cross cut sled and hot glue the keys to a 4" X 12" piece first. Then make your cuts using the sled which will carry both the work piece and the cut off safely past the blade. You can stop the blade after the cut is completed also. Then, reattach the piece for the second cut. I'd use a spot or two of hot glue. It's aggressive enough to hold on securely, but will separate cleanly when needed.
Thanks for the replies. I'm liking the idea of gluing the key to another block for safe handling. I don't have a sled (it's on my "to-do" list), but I can easily make a zero clearance insert.
I had thought about using my bandsaw, but felt that the table saw would give me smoother cuts. I realize I'll be losing quite a bit of Ebony to the saw kerf, but I have a piano's worth of keys to work with.
...................... I had thought about using my bandsaw, but felt that the table saw would give me smoother cuts. I realize I'll be losing quite a bit of Ebony to the saw kerf, but I have a piano's worth of keys to work with..........
In most cases, if you use a bandsaw, by the time you finish sanding out the blade marks, you will have removed about as much material as if you just used the table saw. This of course is assuming you dont have a high dollar band saw and a high dollar blade.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned using a Tenon or Back Saw
with fine teeth for this project. it would be safer and provide more
control for the small pieces. a little sanding on a sanding block and it's done.
Carpet seam tape or other double sided tape can be very aggressive and sticks as well as glue to a clean, dry, smooth surface. Use Acetone to wipe away any oils and the apply a thin strip if tape to the long grain of both pieces. The cutting/sawing forces are not trying to pry it away, just slide it along .... not gonna happen. :|
Id just make the zero-clearance insert. I rip small pieces all the time, you need to pay attention but its not difficult. Use push sticks, dont get your hands close to the spinny bit, pay attention to what the woods doing and dont make a big production over it. Just a typical ripping operation on a smaller than typical workpiece. Keeping the workpiece supported near the blade is the only critical part that doesnt come up in other operations, and the insert solves that
Also, for those worried about saw kerf sizes, dont forget about 7 1/4" blades. Generally theyre 1/16" kerf blades, compared to a thin-kerf 10" blade being 3/32"
Every table saw should have one at all times!
Small parts are especially a safety concern and they should not be able to get trapped between the blade and the throat plate.
The crosscut sled takes the place of the zero clearance insert, but is no substitute for one.
The safest way to cut small part is to attach them to a larger more controllable piece. Using multiple push sticks or a Gripper can also work in experienced hands, but it's always best to error on the side of caution. I use a push shoe that is sacrifial and gets cut each time I run a small piece through, but it will not allow the off cut or the workpiece to drop away. My saw has a zero clearance insert as well.
All flat surfaces, but none are square to each other!
In the end, I used my Grr-Ripper with the 1/8" foot & easily cut the pieces I needed. The gap in my standard throat plate was small enough that I didn't expect a problem, and I figured that the worst that could happen would be the loss of a piece of stock or a chunk of my Grr-Ripper. Worked very well.
The problem of cutting the ebony parts is well solved, but please allow me to share my experience with a small parts sled:
I have a commercial small parts sled. It was one of those things that I said to myself, "Not worth the cost" and "I could build one if I really need it." I got by without one for a long time. I thought of it as a "nice to have, but not a necessity" item.
I won a commercial small parts sled as a giveaway prize from a holiday party. I assembled it and started using it. It has proven so useful for so many things, it is hard to imagine how I could have gotten by without it. When I switched table saws, one of the first things I did was repair it to work with the new saw. (There was a difference in the miter slot to blade distance between the two saws.)
If you have a chance to make or buy a small parts sled, I recommend it. You will find many more uses for it than you expect. My small parts sled costs more than it should, especially considering that it is made from MDF. That makes the build vs. buy question harder to answer. Here is the one I have: https://www.rockler.com/rockler-table-saw-small-parts-sled
A question:
Are the keys ebony or Bakelite? A bit of work with sand paper should tell you.
One of the first rules of wood working is:
Push sticks are meant to come in contact with the saw blade.
To solve your problem, a zero clearance insert.
Two push sticks.
One to keep the material next to the fence, i.e. horizontal force to the right.
The second push stick to push down and through the cut.
Make the push sticks to meet your needs. I like using KD 2x4 from Lowes as stock material for the push block part.
A question:
Are the keys ebony or Bakelite? A bit of work with sand paper should tell you.
One of the first rules of wood working is:
Push sticks are meant to come in contact with the saw blade.
To solve your problem, a zero clearance insert. Two push sticks.
One to keep the material next to the fence, i.e. horizontal force to the right.
The second push stick to push down and through the cut.
Make the push sticks to meet your needs. I like using KD 2x4 from Lowes as stock material for the push block part.
A single push "shoe" is what you need. Too many things can go wrong with 2 separate push sticks AND they do apply the proper force direction .... forward and downward simultaneously.
See the section on Safer Push Sticks: http://www.waterfront-woods.com/ A Safer Push Stick By Rick Christopherson
.....General Principle When using a push stick, your hand is behind the tail-end of the workpiece, and the pressure you are applying is generally forward, with only moderate downward pressure. In the event something were to go wrong, your hand has the tendency to go forward and down, which is heading toward the blade. While the push stick discussed above broke in half, the same could happen with a kick-back, where the stick would flip out from under you, and your hand would still continue forward and downward.......
It is always good to have discussions on safety to put forth pros and cons. For what it is worth there is also the argument that a push shoe with an enclosed style handle traps your hand pulling it into the blade. I think we have people here that are well aware of the dangers of using a saw and are quite capable of making decisions that work best for them.
Push sticks can't apply the necessary forces, forward and downward simultaneously. There is NO leverage at the very end of a workpiece to press it downward, only forward or away from the operator, hence the name "push" stick.
If the stick breaks, or comes in unintended contact with the blade bad things will happen. Ask Catpower.
Should the push stick used against the side of the workpiece and slip, that could cause a sudden reaction and bad things will happen.
FWIW, I have several small ones that I keep on top of the fence for the times I feel they work best, but my preference is always for a push shoe. However, I don't ever use 2 at the same time.
Push sticks can't apply the necessary forces, forward and downward simultaneously. There is NO leverage at the very end of a workpiece to press it downward, only forward or away from the operator, hence the name "push" stick.
If the stick breaks, or comes in unintended contact with the blade bad things will happen. Ask Catpower.
Should the push stick used against the side of the workpiece and slip, that could cause a sudden reaction and bad things will happen.
FWIW, I have several small ones that I keep on top of the fence for the times I feel they work best, but my preference is always for a push shoe. However, I don't ever use 2 at the same time.
Why do you need to apply downforce when there shouldnt be any force pushing up? Yeah, if youre cutting a dado then you need downforce because a non-through cut will push the work up, but i already said that and acknowledged the use of a pushblock for that use case. For a rip cut, if you have upward force then something is severly wrong and it aint the push stick. The only downward force a push stick needs to apply is barely any at all.
Again, proper tools for the job and nothing needs to get 'banned' because it doesnt work for one use case its not even supposed to be used for. You said it yourself, a push stick is to push, not hold down. Faulting a push stick because it doesnt hold down and people hurt themselves trying to make it hold down is like saying that screwdrivers should be banned because someone broke one and hurt themselves while trying to use use one as a prybar
A piece of material being push between the blade and fence is subject to the upward friction of the blade at it's rear, So, YES it needs to be held down. BTDT thousands of times. If you don't believe me, try it with your simple push stick only at the front and see what happens ..... Don't believe me? Then this guy knows a thing or two:
With what I call a push shoe, the device is more stable, and less prone to being knocked out from under you. The push shoe holds the workpiece down better not only at the back, but also prevents the front of the board from lifting up. If the front of the board comes up, you risk having an "Over-the-top-kick-back", when the back teeth of the blade catch the wood, and it rides over the blade. (See Today's Woodworker Magazine issue 53 p.28 for my discussion of various types of kick-back) The reason for the increased stability is because your hand is positioned over the tail of your workpiece, not behind it. Furthermore, your hand's pressure is applied directly downward, not at an angle through the length of the push stick. And finally, the sole of the push stick provides a longer contact area with the workpiece, which is what prevents the front of the board from lifting.
A piece of material being push between the blade and fence is subject to the upward friction of the blade at it's rear, So, YES it needs to be held down. BTDT thousands of times. If you don't believe me, try it with your simple push stick only at the front and see what happens .....
I have, every time I turn my saw on. If your saw has workpieces seeing a significant force on the backside of the blade that pushes them up, your fence is misaligned. If you need more than just enough force to feed the piece through the blade, then there's something wrong with your setup. Either your saw is misaligned, or your workpiece isn't supported properly and creating an unsafe situation. That's the operators fault, not the push sticks
Sorry for the bickering, I just get irritated when people decide to spread false information based on their 'years of experience'. We have a lot of new people who look to experience for advice on how to do things properly and safely, false information is only going to cause harm when it comes to power tools. The idea that push sticks are useless and you should only ever be using push blocks to force workpieces down against the table, instead of properly setting up your saw and supporting the workpiece, is going to lead to harm.
Both have their place, blocks and sticks, and neither needs to be 'banned'. Proper tool for the job at hand, the responsibility of the community at large should be educating those with less experience on when to use which and how to create a safe situation in the first place
Just because something has worked for one person it does not mean it is the last word on the subject, it is just one opinion of over 10 million users in North America.
If it's me you're wrong and that's why I posted the other links from reputable woodworkers ..... IF you bothered to check them out...?
Experience matters. You count on yours every day and post it here, just as I do. I never claimed to be the "last word" on anything ..... just sayin'
Can we please stop this silly bickering. Push stick / Push Pad, whatever floats your boat AND keeps your fingers safe and intact.
Attached are a couple of pictures of push pad stick made from the instructions in one of Taunton's books, page about 61 but I can't remember the exact title, "In The Craftsman Style?" It is about how to build craftsman style furniture. IIRC the book cost $30 and the push stick instructions has been well worth the cost of the book.
Notes: The handle is made from two laminated pieces of ¾ inch Baltic Birch. It is cut on the band saw or with a sabre saw. Minor sanding and routing round over for comfort. The only semi important cut is where the block and finger meet at the handle. That corner should be close to a right angle.
The block itself is a 2x4 from Lowes (Because they sell KD 2x4.) My push finger is 1½ x 3¾ and ¼ thick. I'll cut the finger or lip is cut from Melamine or ¼ Baltic Birch scraps.
A single screw through the handle and finger into the 2x4 is all that is needed for assembly. The screw is about 2 inches above the bottom of the 2x4. My preference is the 2½ inch Kreg screws because of the Robertson drive. Almost any screw can be used but I would avoid flat head screws as they tend to split the handle.
A HUGE advantage to this push stick is that the finger and block can be rotated and changed in a matter if minutes. When everything is chopped up too badly, the 2x4 and finger are easily rotated. As you can see the push stick / pad is well used.
This whole thing has got to the point of being ridiculous, either style have their place and if they are made and used properly are perfectly safe. The real problem is when an operator grabs a thin, narrow plywood cut-off hoping he can control the material with the squared off end.
in our shop i keep 3-4 different styles at all times sitting near the table saw and bandsaw (and jointer), we use the one which is most appropriate for the cut at hand.
maybe we should have a "show us your push stick" (incl push pad) thread... i am always interested in different styles.
in our shop i keep 3-4 different styles at all times sitting near the table saw and bandsaw (and jointer), we use the one which is most appropriate for the cut at hand.
maybe we should have a "show us your push stick" (incl push pad) thread... i am always interested in different styles.
I have several styles in the shop. Pads with a finger, pads without fingers and the home made style shown above. The pads with are great on the jointer. The pads without are great on the router table and the home made ones are a God send on the table saw.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Woodworking Talk
1M posts
88.3K members
Since 2006
A forum community dedicated to professional woodworkers and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about shop safety, wood, carpentry, lumber, finishing, tools, machinery, woodworking related topics, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!