Burl table top - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 37 Old 03-13-2018, 05:21 PM
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I'm not color blind but I have problems matching what looks good together. What is the "bone" you're talking about?
In a wood tone, Maple, or Ash could be close...??...You could call it a blond or cream color from a Interior Designers perspective.

When I say bone...I mean the actual material. I hope to be doing some design sets in leather upholstery, and wood with "bow-ties" and related joinery inlays in Elk, Deer, Bison and related bone/antler material. These installations of custom furniture will only employ all natural and traditional methods with no modern materials in there fabrication. The leather will be "brain tan" and most of the work done with traditional hand tools. Its been a several year process in design to reproduce a leather settee sofa I did for a gentleman's den from game he harvested...

In your project, Maple would be highly contrasting. Some like that look. Cherry is a less bright or conflicting contrast...

Hope that helps?

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post #22 of 37 Old 03-14-2018, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Hey Jay, I laid out a couple of bow tie keys and wanted your opinion on these. The 2 end ones are obviously going to be much smaller, I was just doing a test. I just made a few out of 2x4’s to get an idea. The 2 middle ones ok in size? I ended up getting some Claro walnut which I think might look beautiful.
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post #23 of 37 Old 03-14-2018, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Actually here is the real dimensions I’d like to use as long as they’re not to big.
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post #24 of 37 Old 03-14-2018, 09:29 PM
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I read most but not all of the posts in this thread, so I don't know if this question has been asked. If this is going to be a table in a pub, can you get by with not filling the cracks (sanitation issues)? Just wondering, I don't have the answer.
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post #25 of 37 Old 03-14-2018, 11:38 PM
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Hi Joe,

I like the over all location of these. Here are some "rules of thumb" for such inlay tie joints...just a guide mind you...not set in stone by no means:

The geometry and size of the "bow-tie" [蝶々型 chōchō-gata (Butter fly)ちぎりChigiri (tie)] should be such that 1/3 bridges the gap...2/3 is into the wood on the other side...

The throat of the "bow-tie" is usually as wide as the gap is itself at minimum...This often dictates the geometry and size of the "bow-tie"

These are natural checks, as you can see there is still connective tissue bridges in some areas...Try to avoid taking these out and put the "bow-tie" someplace else...or...put them over the connective bridge and take it out completely...

I would also not here now that there is a concept in Asian arts and crafts (and in life in general) called Wabi-sabi 侘寂, with forms of it in the art of Kintsugi 金継ぎ. This is the art and design of..."beautifully broken." Acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic that sees beauty in the imperfect, impermanent, and/or incomplete...Your table project is a perfect example of this. As such, there are many ways, beyond just the "bow-tie" for repairing, and/or filling those voids that will not only structurally augment and strengthen the wood, but add aesthetic elements as well.

Here is a link, related...but not really...LOL...that you might find insightful...If you go to other pages he talks more about the "bow-tie."

TRADITIONAL BOATS - EAST AND WEST - AT DOUGLAS BROOKS BOATBUILDING
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post #26 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 12:31 AM
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Actually here is the real dimensions Iíd like to use as long as theyíre not to big.
Since the underside doesn't show another option would be to mortise out the center of the cookie and glue a sheet of plywood to the bottom. That would hold the cookie together better than a bowtie patch here and there.
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post #27 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 01:33 AM
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Since the underside doesn't show another option would be to mortise out the center of the cookie and glue a sheet of plywood to the bottom. That would hold the cookie together better than a bowtie patch here and there.
I know I have seen it done, and it has caused the entire cookie to blow apart due to effecting uneven stress being released. If such movement of large slabs, cookies and related wide wood installations could be so easily effected in having wood movement arrested, I would think it would be a more frequent procedure? I have experimented with such methods myself in the past, and the outcomes have been less then stellar, but that's just my experience, and one of the reasons I am very reluctant to use plastic resins, and related materials accept in very specific applications, and/or very sparingly.

Perhaps, if the plywood was thick enough and was rapidly inserted into the cut recess, and the entire plywood inset was embedded in epoxy immediately after excision, it could arrest the movement of the visible wood without imperfection/deficiency developing. What would happen over time? From a mass fabrication standpoint, limited skill sets, and speed of production operation, this may be a viable way to render cross sectional wood (cookie and related) to be produced more rapidly without the common pitfalls this type of wood present to the average woodworker? I would want to conduct or see more experimenting and sampling to happen to understand it well enough overtime to see if it is viable. I do not know of such work being done? Do others, or is there examples of this?
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post #28 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
I know I have seen it done, and it has caused the entire cookie to blow apart due to effecting uneven stress being released. If such movement of large slabs, cookies and related wide wood installations could be so easily effected in having wood movement arrested, I would think it would be a more frequent procedure? I have experimented with such methods myself in the past, and the outcomes have been less then stellar, but that's just my experience, and one of the reasons I am very reluctant to use plastic resins, and related materials accept in very specific applications, and/or very sparingly.

Perhaps, if the plywood was thick enough and was rapidly inserted into the cut recess, and the entire plywood inset was embedded in epoxy immediately after excision, it could arrest the movement of the visible wood without imperfection/deficiency developing. What would happen over time? From a mass fabrication standpoint, limited skill sets, and speed of production operation, this may be a viable way to render cross sectional wood (cookie and related) to be produced more rapidly without the common pitfalls this type of wood present to the average woodworker? I would want to conduct or see more experimenting and sampling to happen to understand it well enough overtime to see if it is viable. I do not know of such work being done? Do others, or is there examples of this?
In this situation there really isn't a good solution. The wood is beyond usability. Putting plywood on the underside would give complete support stabilizing the overall shape of the cookie. If there is any wood movement at all with with the bowtie patches it's certain to blow out making the cookie in worse shape than it is now. They won't hold the crack at all given it's in end grain.
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post #29 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...The wood is beyond usability...
Without plywood? I'm not seeing that in my experience...

Again, I would like to see "real world" examples of this technique of plywood application being successful over time before I personally would want to give advice to someone to "experiment" with there project based on conjecture...But that's just me. If you have done this and had success with the technique, that's great, and I would like to know more, and see examples (links) to it or work like it?

I am all for the experiment, as I stated in my last post...There are elements to this that perhaps should be revisited. In my experience, this system has pitfalls as I have already mentioned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
If there is any wood movement at all with with the bowtie patches it's certain to blow out making the cookie in worse shape than it is now. They won't hold the crack at all given it's in end grain.
Simply not true in my experience...

I'm not offering guidance here on this (or other) forum based on conjecture or "I think you should" scenarios...

I've done or worked with those that have done every single piece of advice I offer...or...I clearly demarcate that I am speculating...Which seldom I do or like doing...

Last edited by 35015; 03-15-2018 at 10:47 AM.
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post #30 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Well damn, according to Steve, this thing is already ruined.
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post #31 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Without plywood? I'm not seeing that in my experience...

Again, I would like to see "real world" examples of this technique of plywood application being successful over time before I personally would want to give advice to someone to "experiment" with there project based on conjecture...But that's just me. If you have done this and had success with the technique, that's great, and I would like to know more, and see examples (links) to it or work like it?

I am all for the experiment, as I stated in my last post...There are elements to this that perhaps should be revisited. In my experience, this system has pitfalls as I have already mentioned...



Simply not true in my experience...

I'm not offering guidance here on this (or other) forum based on conjecture or "I think you should" scenarios...

I've done or worked with those that have done every single piece of advice I offer...or...I clearly demarcate that I am speculating...Which seldom I do or like doing...
It's only common sense that a piece of plywood glued to the entire surface would hold the top together better. On the other hand I have had to repair cookies that have had bowties and when the crack opened up further the bowtie just tore out instead of holding making the problem bigger. This is why I initially recommended just filling the cracks with epoxy. At least if it cracked further you could just add some more epoxy instead of having to make larger bowties. Personally I think bowties are an eyesore anyway.
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post #32 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 12:41 PM
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Well damn, according to Steve, this thing is already ruined.
I wouldn't go so far as say ruined. I just think there is a greater chance of failure with the bowties. You may never have a problem with it. That is just part of woodworking, wood has a mind of it's own.
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post #33 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 02:49 PM
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It's only common sense that a piece of plywood glued to the entire surface would hold the top together better...
Well then...??...I guess I don't have any, and the negatives I've seen with similar practices with plywood lamination are pointless to share?

Again please do share when you have laminated plywood to good effect...since you have:

Quote:
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"...had to repair cookies that have had bowties and when the crack opened up further the bowtie just tore out instead of holding making the problem bigger..."
It would seem my advice is pointless, as is my experience, since its the opposite of what was just suggested. I haven't met anyone (until now) that has an aesthetic object to bowtie joinery or find them troublesome?

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic also...
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post #34 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
..........On the other hand I have had to repair cookies that have had bowties and when the crack opened up further the bowtie just tore out instead of holding making the problem bigger. This is why I initially recommended just filling the cracks with epoxy. At least if it cracked further you could just add some more epoxy instead of having to make larger bowties. Personally I think bowties are an eyesore anyway.
Steve, it sounds as if your cookies we're not dry enough to start with AND the additional drying caused the problem!!! The OP said it is been kiln dried, now whether it is were it needs to be for the place it's going is ??? SO to say it WON'T work comparing it to something that was obviously incorrect to start with is just plain stupid....then to comment that a bowtie is a eyesore, man you need to take some time off and unwind...bowties are a personal preference and not for everyone AND we ALL have different taste BUT to tell a person they're eyesore isn't a good characteristic I think a moderator should be spouting out. You should be acting ( as a mod) at a higher standard representing this website and it's owners. Your replies need to have more thought and facts involved. PLEASE Steve take a big breath and breathe, you used to not be this way, THINK about what I've said BEFORE YOU REPLY!!!
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post #35 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 09:15 PM
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Steve, it sounds as if your cookies we're not dry enough to start with AND the additional drying caused the problem!!! The OP said it is been kiln dried, now whether it is were it needs to be for the place it's going is ??? SO to say it WON'T work comparing it to something that was obviously incorrect to start with is just plain stupid....then to comment that a bowtie is a eyesore, man you need to take some time off and unwind...bowties are a personal preference and not for everyone AND we ALL have different taste BUT to tell a person they're eyesore isn't a good characteristic I think a moderator should be spouting out. You should be acting ( as a mod) at a higher standard representing this website and it's owners. Your replies need to have more thought and facts involved. PLEASE Steve take a big breath and breathe, you used to not be this way, THINK about what I've said BEFORE YOU REPLY!!!
Just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I don't have a right to my opinion like everyone else.

As far as the repaired cookie all I can do is post my experience with it and it wasn't good.

In this case the cookie was thoroughly dried, partially rotten and almost coming apart into pieces. Gluing a piece of plywood to the underside isn't going to hurt it a bit. If the backside had plywood glued to it and the front side was held together with epoxy it's highly unlikely there would ever be an issue with the top.
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post #36 of 37 Old 03-15-2018, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Well I’m definitely not a professional in anyway, in fact I’m pretty new to this. I’m glad that there are others on here that have different opinions because if I had just listened to Steve I would’ve scraped the whole project. Anyway I put in 2 small bow tie keys on 2 ends of where it was weak and WOW, what a difference in sturdiness. Maybe it will be short lived but for the moment it came out much better than I expected. Plus I have t even put in the 2 larger ones yet. The way I’m trying to look at it is if the bow ties fail than I always have epoxy to fall back in. Thanks all for the info. I’ll continue to post updates. Here is one of the keys.
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post #37 of 37 Old 05-07-2019, 08:09 PM
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Joe, you said "if the bow ties fail than I always have epoxy to fall back in." I would think you would be using epoxy on the top anyway to keep debris from falling into the cracks. I've been told most if not all brewery's have to serve food in order to get a license. I would be totally grossed out if I sat down at a table with food stuff stuck in the cracks. Another thing to consider is if you do use black or dark epoxy it will cover anything that is already in the cracks so you won't have to clean them out. Good luck in what ever you decide to do.
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