Average Cabinet Door Builder Salary - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 10-15-2017, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Average Cabinet Door Builder Salary

I am trying to determine an acceptable salary for a cabinet door builder. There are many listings on the internet for the average salary of a cabinet maker, but what I am unsure of is if there is (or should be) a difference between the salary of a cabinet door maker and a cabinet(box) maker? My understanding is that it is more difficult to find individuals who build doors than cabinet boxes; I would expect this would affect salary.

I have been working in general construction since mid-teens (I'm currently mid 20's), and have been working in a cabinet shop for almost 7 years. For the entirety of those 7 years I have been building cabinet doors (mostly joiner, raised/shaped panel doors and shaker doors -- both stained and painted). I build faceplates/faceframes for cabinets, as well as drawer boxes, drawer fronts and shelves. I also stain/paint doors, cabinets, shelves, drawers, etc., as well as some laminate work, as well as helping with the installations. I know how to build the cabinets themselves, though that is not my job description and have not been expected to do so.

So, in short, what is everyone's experience with salary for someone of this particular skill set? I take pride in my work and consider myself conscientious of build integrity.

Here is an example of my doors (this set is maple):
Attachment 320113
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post #2 of 14 Old 10-15-2017, 09:13 PM
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I think there are factors affecting salaries that need to be included in this question.
Salaries will vary based on building commercial cabinets vs residential cabinets.
Salaries will vary based on location. San Francisco vs Jackson, MS.
Union shop or non-union shop

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #3 of 14 Old 10-16-2017, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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We build mostly residential cabinets; custom, high-end quality. We are in a semi-rural area, near a college city. Non-union.
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post #4 of 14 Old 10-16-2017, 05:11 AM
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Let me start by saying, it is not my intention to offend you young man.


I have never heard of a cabinet door maker as a stand alone profession. You are either a cabinet maker, that can take raw lumber and turn it into something useful. Or you are an apprentice in the field of cabinet making. A man that can take $2,500 worth of prime high grade wood of any species, and turn it into a complete set of cabinets worth $15,000 in two or three weeks is a cabinet maker. Such a man is worth a very good salary.


As a business owner I have no use for help that bring they're butt to work, but leave half they're brain at home. Clock watchers and half steppers aren't worth my time or money, and last about two days with me.


Big Red Flag for me is you're statement concerning you're skills and duties. Only doing what is expected of you is a sure way to leave me completely unimpressed.


Everybody wants more money my friend. However wanting and deserving are very different situations.


In my opinion, if a fella isn't striving to become lead man. He is lucky to have a job.


Don't ask you're boss for a raise. Ask you're boss for a chance to learn more, a chance to become more valuable to the company.


I'm twice you're age young man. One thing I have learned beyond a doubt.


If you aren't impressing yourself, you can damned well bet you aint impressing anyone else.

"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it"


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post #5 of 14 Old 10-16-2017, 06:27 AM
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Any place I've ever worked the people making the doors were paid the same as those building the boxes. The management usually does all the skilled work setting up the machinery. For the people doing the actual door building it's just grunt work.
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post #6 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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I don't simply put together the door parts, I take the dimensions of the cabinet openings, measure for the required door-sizes, cut out the lumber, join it, sand it and build the doors, stain/paint them, finish them, and install them. I also take care of setting up the door shapers and panel raiser. For all intents and purposes, my employer is not bothered with doing anything in regards to the door process or even the finishing process.

I never said I would not or don't do anything beyond my job description; I have spent a fair amount of time helping him with his personal landscaping projects, or his in-home construction projects ; I will gladly do anything he asks from me. Perhaps I should have not included my age so that my motives and work ethic would not be questioned. I was approached by my employer, his intentions being to train me to take over the business, and I joined under the assumption that I would be taught how to build cabinets; though he has taught me some aspects of the cabinet building process, what he hasn't overtly taught me has been learned simply by seeing him build, paying attention and measuring the final product; you learn a lot about the construction process of a cabinet simply from sanding, painting and installing and simply being around the individual building them. I have no doubt that I could build cabinets myself, and I would gladly build a set if blueprints were given to me to do so; it is simply not what he needs from me. We have been a two-man operation for the majority of my 6 and 1/2 years there and we are consistently 4-6 months out in our work schedule. I work as much as he needs me, whether it be sun-up to sun-down on a weekday or on a Saturday. What I am needed for is building doors and finishing cabinets. A large portion of our workload is building doors for many other cabinet makers in the area, not simply our own. I barely have enough time to finish-spray the cabinets for having so many orders of doors to fill.

I would also like to add that my current salary is $11 an hour (which has not included overtime pay), in addition to having to pay my own self-employment taxes. I initially started out in the cabinet shop at $8 an hour, taking a paycut of $4 an hour less than what I was making in general construction as a grunt-laborer, to have this job; a job that I did not ask for, but was an opportunity presented to me. My income still has not recovered from what it was when I was a teen, working as a grunt-laborer in a 2-man general construction company. I do some real estate investing on the side to try and make up for this income loss. I absolutely take pride in my work. I listed the skills that I did to convey the point that I am not simply a grunt-laborer in a cabinet shop. I came here trying to determine a reasonable amount to ask; I understand that I cannot expect the same pay in a small business. All the same, I would think more than $11 an hour would be reasonable.
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post #7 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbonner91 View Post
I would also like to add that my current salary is $11 an hour (which has not included overtime pay), in addition to having to pay my own self-employment taxes. I initially started out in the cabinet shop at $8 an hour, taking a paycut of $4 an hour less than what I was making in general construction as a grunt-laborer, to have this job; a job that I did not ask for, but was an opportunity presented to me. My income still has not recovered from what it was when I was a teen, working as a grunt-laborer in a 2-man general construction company. I do some real estate investing on the side to try and make up for this income loss. I absolutely take pride in my work. I listed the skills that I did to convey the point that I am not simply a grunt-laborer in a cabinet shop. I came here trying to determine a reasonable amount to ask; I understand that I cannot expect the same pay in a small business. All the same, I would think more than $11 an hour would be reasonable.

JTBonner I am nobody to you! No matter what I say, I can have no effect on you or your life unless you choose to let me.


When you ask another man for input or advice, use what you can and disregard the rest. Leave emotion out of the process.


You are under paid I agree, but I only have what you have written here to make that assessment. $14 to $17 would be about right in my opinion.


When one asks or even demands a raise, that individual should be prepared to walk. If not you have no leverage in the matter. Lack of advancement
or pay is a legitimate reason for giving notice on a job. And should not deter any possible new employer. It is very likely you will have to leave to get
the pay raise your skill level deserves.


Victory belongs to the bold JTBonner.


Back in the day my brother and I, got hired on by a framing outfit as helpers/laborers. After sticking around long enough to frame a couple of houses. We quit, and went down the road to another outfit and got hired as carpenters at twice our previous pay. Within a year we had our own crew.


My old Pop had a lot of sayings he use to tell my brothers and I. One of my favorites that has always stuck with me.


He would say: " Boys! The whole damned World lines up at your front door every morning just to have a chance to kick your ass! So you had better wake up being you're own best friend, no sense in giving them a head start!"


Good Luck Young Man!
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post #8 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbonner91 View Post
I don't simply put together the door parts, I take the dimensions of the cabinet openings, measure for the required door-sizes, cut out the lumber, join it, sand it and build the doors, stain/paint them, finish them, and install them. I also take care of setting up the door shapers and panel raiser. For all intents and purposes, my employer is not bothered with doing anything in regards to the door process or even the finishing process.

I never said I would not or don't do anything beyond my job description; I have spent a fair amount of time helping him with his personal landscaping projects, or his in-home construction projects ; I will gladly do anything he asks from me. Perhaps I should have not included my age so that my motives and work ethic would not be questioned. I was approached by my employer, his intentions being to train me to take over the business, and I joined under the assumption that I would be taught how to build cabinets; though he has taught me some aspects of the cabinet building process, what he hasn't overtly taught me has been learned simply by seeing him build, paying attention and measuring the final product; you learn a lot about the construction process of a cabinet simply from sanding, painting and installing and simply being around the individual building them. I have no doubt that I could build cabinets myself, and I would gladly build a set if blueprints were given to me to do so; it is simply not what he needs from me. We have been a two-man operation for the majority of my 6 and 1/2 years there and we are consistently 4-6 months out in our work schedule. I work as much as he needs me, whether it be sun-up to sun-down on a weekday or on a Saturday. What I am needed for is building doors and finishing cabinets. A large portion of our workload is building doors for many other cabinet makers in the area, not simply our own. I barely have enough time to finish-spray the cabinets for having so many orders of doors to fill.

I would also like to add that my current salary is $11 an hour (which has not included overtime pay), in addition to having to pay my own self-employment taxes. I initially started out in the cabinet shop at $8 an hour, taking a paycut of $4 an hour less than what I was making in general construction as a grunt-laborer, to have this job; a job that I did not ask for, but was an opportunity presented to me. My income still has not recovered from what it was when I was a teen, working as a grunt-laborer in a 2-man general construction company. I do some real estate investing on the side to try and make up for this income loss. I absolutely take pride in my work. I listed the skills that I did to convey the point that I am not simply a grunt-laborer in a cabinet shop. I came here trying to determine a reasonable amount to ask; I understand that I cannot expect the same pay in a small business. All the same, I would think more than $11 an hour would be reasonable.
I believe it is illegal for your employer to be paying you contract labor. You might talk to your state employment commission about the work you are doing. Generally contract labor is when someone hires you and you bring in all your own tools and preform a job by the piece rather than by the hour. Every state has their own laws. All I can say is it would be illegal in Texas. This would eliminate you having to pay self employment taxes. You know you pay double social security with self employment taxes than you would on wages.

I agree $8.00 an hour is way too cheap for the work you are doing. You could make more than that stocking shelves at Walmart.
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post #9 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 09:06 AM
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Oddly enough I was listening to Dave Ramsey this morning and someone had asked when it is appropriate to ask for a raise. The answer was simple and not so simple, look at it from your managers eyes and ask what would make sense if you were him to pay you. Do you add benefit to the operation, are you more knowledgeable than before. Make your case for what you think your time is worth and why then ask for that pay. In my industry (engineering) I use resources like glassdoor to see what people around are making doing similar jobs.

As for cabinet door maker vs box builder, when I was working at a mom and pop wood shop we only ever had all in one Cabinet Makers so that wouldn't play a role in pay.

That said I have no clue what a cabinet maker should be making per hour, to me its what is the cabinet worth to someone and then get proficient to make the cabinet or door faster. Faster worker at same quality means your making more per hour. This is also what I would use to approach the boss. If you were getting one room done a day before and now you are getting two rooms done a day then show that as the case and ask for twice the pay. If that makes sense.

The other route is ask your boss what he expects of you if you were to want to make your old pay (or greater). Then prove to him your worth it.

Not sure if that is helpful at all but there you go my two Lincolns

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post #10 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 11:57 AM
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@jtbonner91's statements are somewhat unclear for me. Here is some comments, based on what I think I read:

* jtbonner91 was invited to work for Employer at a significant pay cut. Jtbonner91 took the pay cut with the understanding that he would learn the cabinet making business with the goal of "taking over the business."

* jtbonner91 never stated what "taking over the business" actually means to him. Does it mean that Employer plans to eventually give the business to jtbonner91? ... or ... Does it mean that jtbonner91 runs the business without assistance from Employer, but employer retains ownership of the business, sets pay rates, keeps the profits, etc. Whatever it is, it should be in writing. Otherwise, jtbonner91 may be sacrificing a lot of his future to put money in the pocket of Employer. There is too much at stake not to have a clear understanding. Six and a half years is a long time commitment to be thinking about "raise" rather than "my future with this business." Despite jtbonner91's comments about "taking over the business", is this really just a simple employment situation - pay for work without a real future? If so, it is time to confront Employer and put everything on the table. Otherwise, Employer will keep taking until jtbonner91 says no.

* With sincere respect, jtbonner91's job to build cabinets and doors to customers is a relatively simple and small aspect of the overall business. There is a lot more to the business than just building cabinets and doors. There are laws and regulations, paperwork for local, state, and federal governments, including taxes, labor, etc. There are legal issues, accounting issues, safety and security, and much more. There are many operational aspects to manage and maintain - tracking and ordering supplies and consumables, loss prevention, tool care and management, repairs and other unexpected expenses. You have to keep sales going so that there is always a backlog, or your employees (you?) will be idle. There is also insurance. In my opinion, jtbonner91 has much more to learn about the business. The learning may be more challenging than cabinet and door construction; a lot more challenging.

* If Employer is not willing to share the business in a meaningful way (to jtbonner91) then it is nothing more than a simple employment arrangement. In that case, jtbonner91 must decide what to do next. I wonder if there are other cabinet makers who would be interested in jtbonner91's skills? If so, he can apply elsewhere - with a potential job offer in hand, jtbonner91 can go to Employer and ask for a raise, with the understanding that he must be willing to part ways with Employer, who may not be coming through with the promise to "take over the business."

* At some point, jtbonner91 must fish or cut bait. The current situation is untenable, in my opinion. Jtbonner91 is working for Employer at below reasonable wages, and jtbonner91 should be compensated for his sacrifice to help keep the business profitable. Perhaps Employer cannot afford higher wages, but then jtbonner91 should be rewarded in some other way, perhaps vesting an a percentage of business ownership each year, in a way that jtbonner91 can afford to buy out Employer in the future. Everything must be in writing, or it never happened. There are few people I know who I would trust with a verbal business contract, and they are either family or my closest friends I have known for many decades. I trust them, but everyone else needs a written contract. We are talking about a significant amount of money (think of the tool asset value alone!), so getting a lawyer to help is quite reasonable.

My advice is worth what you paid for it, but I hope it helps to stimulate some realistic thinking on jtbonner91's part.
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post #11 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 01:24 PM
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I seldom fully read long blocks of type on here so I may have missed something, what I don't understand is why you are still there after 7 years. I can see a very good reason why you are only making doors, he has taught you enough to keep you there, but not enough to make you an experienced cabinetmaker and risk you moving on.
The worst thing that can happen to an employee is to get comfortable, particularly when there is little reward.

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post #12 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
@jtbonner91's statements are somewhat unclear for me. Here is some comments, based on what I think I read:

* jtbonner91 was invited to work for Employer at a significant pay cut. Jtbonner91 took the pay cut with the understanding that he would learn the cabinet making business with the goal of "taking over the business."

* jtbonner91 never stated what "taking over the business" actually means to him. Does it mean that Employer plans to eventually give the business to jtbonner91? ... or ... Does it mean that jtbonner91 runs the business without assistance from Employer, but employer retains ownership of the business, sets pay rates, keeps the profits, etc. Whatever it is, it should be in writing. Otherwise, jtbonner91 may be sacrificing a lot of his future to put money in the pocket of Employer. There is too much at stake not to have a clear understanding. Six and a half years is a long time commitment to be thinking about "raise" rather than "my future with this business." Despite jtbonner91's comments about "taking over the business", is this really just a simple employment situation - pay for work without a real future? If so, it is time to confront Employer and put everything on the table. Otherwise, Employer will keep taking until jtbonner91 says no.

* With sincere respect, jtbonner91's job to build cabinets and doors to customers is a relatively simple and small aspect of the overall business. There is a lot more to the business than just building cabinets and doors. There are laws and regulations, paperwork for local, state, and federal governments, including taxes, labor, etc. There are legal issues, accounting issues, safety and security, and much more. There are many operational aspects to manage and maintain - tracking and ordering supplies and consumables, loss prevention, tool care and management, repairs and other unexpected expenses. You have to keep sales going so that there is always a backlog, or your employees (you?) will be idle. There is also insurance. In my opinion, jtbonner91 has much more to learn about the business. The learning may be more challenging than cabinet and door construction; a lot more challenging.

* If Employer is not willing to share the business in a meaningful way (to jtbonner91) then it is nothing more than a simple employment arrangement. In that case, jtbonner91 must decide what to do next. I wonder if there are other cabinet makers who would be interested in jtbonner91's skills? If so, he can apply elsewhere - with a potential job offer in hand, jtbonner91 can go to Employer and ask for a raise, with the understanding that he must be willing to part ways with Employer, who may not be coming through with the promise to "take over the business."

* At some point, jtbonner91 must fish or cut bait. The current situation is untenable, in my opinion. Jtbonner91 is working for Employer at below reasonable wages, and jtbonner91 should be compensated for his sacrifice to help keep the business profitable. Perhaps Employer cannot afford higher wages, but then jtbonner91 should be rewarded in some other way, perhaps vesting an a percentage of business ownership each year, in a way that jtbonner91 can afford to buy out Employer in the future. Everything must be in writing, or it never happened. There are few people I know who I would trust with a verbal business contract, and they are either family or my closest friends I have known for many decades. I trust them, but everyone else needs a written contract. We are talking about a significant amount of money (think of the tool asset value alone!), so getting a lawyer to help is quite reasonable.

My advice is worth what you paid for it, but I hope it helps to stimulate some realistic thinking on jtbonner91's part.

From personal experience I have found the people, friends and family will be the first ones to hose you in any financial dealings. I had a "friend" I trained to do HVAC/R he started as my helper when he was 16 at 17 he joined the Army and after his stint he came back to work at the same place, and was again my assistant, he was like a brother it seemed, but when I started my own bidness, the plan was I was going to get it up and running and then he was going to come to work for me.Well his wife decided it was going to be a partnership, and it all went down hill from there. I have also had relatives that thought I should give them free HVAC/R work just because we were related.

My new theory is "When it come to money or business,I have no friends or relatives"

To the OP, $11 isn't even half of poverty level pay, tell him to pay up or you will walk, but be ready to walk

Wood working isn't a high paying job, we all like to do it but if you have to work hard and little reward you might look in a different trade

BTW HVAC/R is a real good trade if you can master it, I made enough doing it I was able to retire at 52 comfortably and now I get to spend as much or little time in the wood shop as I want. And there is a dire shortage of good techs, and the good ones are making over $100,000 per year
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post #13 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 03:35 PM
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My approach to “getting a deserved raise” may be different from others but here are my thoughts.
1. After 6 1/2 years working in a two man shop, you should have a very close and comfortable relationship with your boss. It is important that you let him know you are needing a raise.
2. I would not quit a job until I had another lined up. But if I’m unhappy I would start looking around for another job. No rush, take your time and make sure it is an upward move for you.
3. I agree with Tool Agnostic above that we don’t know what promises your boss may have made with you but add you have learned cabinetry on your present job. You now have skills you did not have a few years ago. We all have to pay for an education.
4. It is always best not to burn a bridge behind you. If you move to a better paying job no one can blame you. Leave the door open with your old boss in case you might want to work part time on Saturdays or something. Also your old boss can be your best reference for a future job.
I wish you good luck.
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If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #14 of 14 Old 10-17-2017, 08:59 PM
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I don't know what the hourly rate is either today and it would vary a lot around the country. It's been 25 years since I worked as an employee and I was getting sixteen dollars an hour then. Then 20 years ago I was paying a experienced person ten dollars an hour. If you are able to do the work you claim you might consider going out on your own. People don't work on their own houses anymore. There is a big demand for people to do simple repairs and it doesn't take a lot of overhead to do that. Shoot I worked all day one day last week for forty five dollars an hour hanging pictures for a lady. If it wasn't a regular customer I would have charged a lot more.
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