Installation Issue with Kitchen Cabinets - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Installation Issue with Kitchen Cabinets

Hi,
First post. I am a bit stuck on how to proceed. I've got about 200 linear feet of wall cabinets to hang on two walls.The house is over 100 years old.The walls are brick and plaster, no studs, no lathe. My current design doesn't allow for much wiggle room. Could I get away with hanging the cabinets off of 1x4 #pine instead of studding out the walls? Say if I just added more screws to the hanging rails in order to support the cabinet weight and what goes in them? I would be applying construction glue and fasten the 1x4's to the plaster/brick with a pneumatic nailer. Okay. If that seems like a pretty risky thing to do because the screw is only engaged with at most 3/4" of wood, as an alternative could I mount 2x4's face on? By my reckoning, I would be able to get a screw into the face of a 2x4 at least 1.25". If I have to change out and end-of-wall cabinet from an 18" to a 12" in order to accommodate a more robust mounting system - so be it.

Thanks in advance.
rmcarner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 10:31 AM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos


Two hundred feet of cabinet...must be a huge house. Why not just use Tapcons. I hang cabinets on block and brick with them with no problems.








.
cabinetman is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to cabinetman For This Useful Post:
rmcarner (02-09-2011)
post #3 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
The Cabinetman wrote..
Quote:
Two hundred feet of cabinet...must be a huge house. Why not just use Tapcons. I hang cabinets on block and brick with them with no problems.
In the uppers, I've got [2] 30's, [1] 36 over the fridge, [1] 24x24 corner,[1] 21", [1] 30" over the gas range, & [1] 18" that will squeeze into the end of the sink-side wall.

Tap cons might work. The problem that I have had with them so far in this house mounting electrical boxes is that the inside course of brick is softer than the exterior course. Apparently it was a common practice to use softer brick (maybe sun dried) on the inside layer and kiln dried bricks on exterior side. Sometimes they simply won't grab. Still...I could try using longer Tapcons. Maybe 2.5"?
rmcarner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 11:18 AM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos
Just a few suggestions. I use the correct drill bit (with this, size is important) in a hammerdrill, and drill through the hangrail into the block at one time. I use a cordless drill to install the Tapcons, on slow speed. It has more torque than an electric on slow speeds. I find a smooth drive is better than an impact driver, as all the screw has to do is thread the media. Excessive vibration can wallow out the hole with the screw. When close to seating, just bump the trigger to tighten. Driving screws fast can over spin them.








.
cabinetman is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cabinetman For This Useful Post:
BRUTAL (02-25-2011), rmcarner (02-09-2011)
post #5 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
Just a few suggestions. I use the correct drill bit (with this, size is important) in a hammerdrill, and drill through the hangrail into the block at one time. I use a cordless drill to install the Tapcons, on slow speed. It has more torque than an electric on slow speeds. I find a smooth drive is better than an impact driver, as all the screw has to do is thread the media. Excessive vibration can wallow out the hole with the screw. When close to seating, just bump the trigger to tighten. Driving screws fast can over spin them.
Yep. All good. I have found the same to be true: in impact drive mode, the bit wallows out the hole in soft or degraded brick. I have also 'found' that I can achieve success if I use an undersized (carbide) bit in this material. Tapcons have definitely bailed me out on many occasions. Weird that I only gave them a passing thought before initiating this thread. If no one strenuously objects, I'm going to stick my plan and settle on 1X4's with the Tapcons.
rmcarner is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 11:40 AM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcarner View Post
If no one strenuously objects, I'm going to stick my plan and settle on 1X4's with the Tapcons.
Does that mean...1x4's are your hangrail? I was suggesting to screw the cabinets on to the brick...no furring strips.








.
cabinetman is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
Does that mean...1x4's are your hangrail? I was suggesting to screw the cabinets on to the brick...no furring strips.
I wish I could post just one image of this 'kitchen' space, you'd see what I'm up against. I'm older than dirt and the cabinets that were in here are at least 20 years older. This is a complete gut. Three walls are exterior/brick/crumbling plaster. You stare hard at the plaster and it comes down. That's why I decided to 'furr out' the walls. 1. To build new walls from scratch off the furring strips (1/2" drywall) and 2. to add an R-5.5 foil backed insulation between the furring strips where nothing existed previously. With that plan in mind, so far, I've installed the new return lines and drain for where the sink will be. I have mortised out spaces in the plaster and have mounted all my outlets(according to the code) both above the counter tops and the ones dedicated to various appliances such as the refrigerator, dishwasher (hardwired), and microwave. I did use Tapcons to mount to electrical boxes. So, all of the counter top electrical boxes (if my plan works out) will be flush with the drywall once it is installed.

It's after doing all of this that I began to wonder how the heck I was going to mount the cabinets on the furring strips (actually full-blown 1x4's - but you get my drift). Then, I started sweating about all the work I had done mounting duplexes and the like...
rmcarner is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 12:49 PM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcarner View Post
I wish I could post just one image of this 'kitchen' space, you'd see what I'm up against. I'm older than dirt and the cabinets that were in here are at least 20 years older. This is a complete gut. Three walls are exterior/brick/crumbling plaster. You stare hard at the plaster and it comes down. That's why I decided to 'furr out' the walls. 1. To build new walls from scratch off the furring strips (1/2" drywall) and 2. to add an R-5.5 foil backed insulation between the furring strips where nothing existed previously. With that plan in mind, so far, I've installed the new return lines and drain for where the sink will be. I have mortised out spaces in the plaster and have mounted all my outlets(according to the code) both above the counter tops and the ones dedicated to various appliances such as the refrigerator, dishwasher (hardwired), and microwave. I did use Tapcons to mount to electrical boxes. So, all of the counter top electrical boxes (if my plan works out) will be flush with the drywall once it is installed.

It's after doing all of this that I began to wonder how the heck I was going to mount the cabinets on the furring strips (actually full-blown 1x4's - but you get my drift). Then, I started sweating about all the work I had done mounting duplexes and the like...
If you are going to all that trouble why not just frame out the walls with 2x4's. You could then install insulation, and have 16" O/C, real wood to install to, on the edges. No worries about flakey walls.

Other thoughts. The brick fascia is likely not flat, and you'll have countless high spots.








.
cabinetman is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
If you are going to all that trouble why not just frame out the walls with 2x4's. You could then install insulation, and have 16" O/C, real wood to install to, on the edges. No worries about flakey walls.

Other thoughts. The brick fascia is likely not flat, and you'll have countless high spots.
You are right of course. I'd get more insulation and have a real wall. My problem is that I would not be able to mount the upper 24/30 corner cabinet because it would intrude into the space where the current window is. The actual usable space for installing cabinets is not as large as you might think. I've got 122.5" x 142.5" to work with on two walls. This space will include a 36"wide fridge, dishwasher, 36" base for sink, & 30" stove. Maybe it's magical thinking, but I was hoping that once I were to install the drywall, my walls would be halfway plump. I am planning on using a Fat Max laser level and a story stick to lay out the lines for the uppers & lowers. Plus tons of shims? Besides my problem with with the way the space is configured is the fact that I dread the thought of pulling out all of the electrical boxes and starting over. You can speak plain if you think for some reason this is a bad plan.
rmcarner is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 01:53 PM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcarner View Post
You are right of course. I'd get more insulation and have a real wall. My problem is that I would not be able to mount the upper 24/30 corner cabinet because it would intrude into the space where the current window is. The actual usable space for installing cabinets is not as large as you might think. I've got 122.5" x 142.5" to work with on two walls. This space will include a 36"wide fridge, dishwasher, 36" base for sink, & 30" stove. Maybe it's magical thinking, but I was hoping that once I were to install the drywall, my walls would be halfway plump. I am planning on using a Fat Max laser level and a story stick to lay out the lines for the uppers & lowers. Plus tons of shims? Besides my problem with with the way the space is configured is the fact that I dread the thought of pulling out all of the electrical boxes and starting over. You can speak plain if you think for some reason this is a bad plan.
I read your first post and you said 200 linear feet...now we're down to inches. Anyway, is your spacing problem because the cabinets are already made?








.
cabinetman is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,932
View Hammer1's Photo Album My Photos
Are you aware of Z-clips? They are an aluminum French cleat, often used on steel stud jobs. An end skin or molding may be necessary to hide the gap on end cabinets if you didn't allow for scribe on the end cabinet side. They are easy to attach to masonry with tapcons, I prefer to hit the mortar joints if the mortar is solid. You may need to shim here and there so they are straight, if the wall isn't, otherwise the matching intersection won't fit together.
http://www.hooksandlattice.com/cleat...Fcfe4Aod22SxHw
Hammer1 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Hammer1 For This Useful Post:
rmcarner (02-09-2011)
post #12 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
I read your first post and you said 200 linear feet...now we're down to inches.
No wonder I can't mount the cabinets!

Quote:
Anyway, is your spacing problem because the cabinets are already made?.
No. I haven't place the order yet. But as I was saying (about one thing), the 30" Wall corner makes it barely without trespassing into the existing window. As it stands, I may have to custom cut narrower than normal window casing - which is no big deal.. I really want to have the 30" Wall Corner as part of the overall design. I don't want a blind corner wall cabinet even if I could find one that would not trespass into the window space were I to frame out with 2x4's. Hope I am making sense of all of this. And, I appreciate the help.
rmcarner is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 02-09-2011, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
The Telescopists
 
rmcarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 7
View rmcarner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer1 View Post
Are you aware of Z-clips? They are an aluminum French cleat, often used on steel stud jobs. An end skin or molding may be necessary to hide the gap on end cabinets if you didn't allow for scribe on the end cabinet side. They are easy to attach to masonry with tapcons, I prefer to hit the mortar joints if the mortar is solid. You may need to shim here and there so they are straight, if the wall isn't, otherwise the matching intersection won't fit together.
http://www.hooksandlattice.com/cleat...Fcfe4Aod22SxHw
I'll look into them here in a bit and see if they are applicable. But one of the things I wanted to do - if I continue with my plan of putting up furring strips was to insert between the furring strips some Tuff-R which at the least would give me @5.5R where now, I got nothing between me and the outside but two courses of brick.
rmcarner is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 02-18-2011, 01:01 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 17
View loosebolt's Photo Album My Photos
I've tried several different anchors in old soft brick and have had the best luck using plastic sleeve anchors and screwing on hat channel instead of 1x4 than cover with drywall, its not the fastest to install but makes a nice solid wall.

Gary
loosebolt is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 03-09-2011, 10:28 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
View Oldtimecarpenter's Photo Album My Photos
How about framing the wall with 2x3's then sheathing it with 3/4" plywood. Sounds like the soft bricks may fail using any mechanical fastener and/ or adhesive. When those cabinets are loaded with dishes, etc., there's a ton of bearing weight on a wall that probably will fail. I wouldn't take the chance period! Do it right or it'll cost you sooner or latter.
Oldtimecarpenter is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 03-24-2011, 12:24 AM
Pianoman
 
pianoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 708
View pianoman's Photo Album My Photos
Maybe it`s just me...but I don`t think I can give any advise without seeing the cabinet lay-out and knowing where the door and or the windows are. Tap cons sounds good...or come kind mounting rails.

Never... I mean always... never mind Rick
pianoman is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 03-28-2011, 02:40 AM
Member
 
woodjoiner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 35
View woodjoiner's Photo Album My Photos
Just a suggestion but could you place the 2x4s flat and anchor with tapcons, adhesive and have room for the window.

You will always learn by doing, so I've learned.
Only trying to help ~Leon~
bestwoodenthings.com
woodjoiner is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 03-28-2011, 11:06 PM
Old School
 
Willie T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 373
View Willie T's Photo Album My Photos
Here's how I often lock in a bank of uppers when some of them aren't hitting over studs.

I hang them all with just gun nails at first, then go back and put in this locking 2x4 at the tops.

Sheer seems to be no problem if you catch all the studs you can with a few screws here and there, and this fix (picture) eliminates any lateral pull.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Woodland Cabinets Safety.jpg
Views:	619
Size:	40.4 KB
ID:	22876  

Willie T is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
kitchen cabinets ssp2 General Woodworking Discussion 20 06-01-2012 10:01 AM
Kitchen cabinets MGW General Woodworking Discussion 3 01-25-2011 06:22 PM
Kitchen Cabinets ??????? chili cook General Woodworking Discussion 20 02-27-2010 03:33 PM
Kitchen cabinets streamer71 Project Showcase 1 01-10-2010 07:16 AM
Kitchen cabinets installation problem Low Rider Luis General Woodworking Discussion 6 05-15-2008 08:36 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome