Crown problem - walls and ceiling not square - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-26-2010, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Crown problem - walls and ceiling not square

Hi there, I am putting in some 3-1/4" standard crown molding. I measured the angle of the ceiling to wall. Barely out of square (probably 89.5 degrees). I looked at the charts that detail all the different angles for my compound miter saw. The angles were so close to the standard 90 angles (that are preset in saw) that I cut my first cut as if the ceiling/wall were a true 90.

So, the one piece of crown is up on the left. After putting up a 2" sample that tested the joint for the right side, I realized I had a problem. Turns out the wall to wall angle is pretty far off. I measure it at 92 degrees. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make this right.

So, to sum up, the left side of my inside corner is up, and cut with standard 90 miter/bevel. The wall/ceiling angle is just less than 90. Wall to wall angle is 92.

Any help would be great - thanks! (Oh, it's paint grade for what it's worth).
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post #2 of 40 Old 06-27-2010, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertalbert View Post
Hi there, I am putting in some 3-1/4" standard crown molding. I measured the angle of the ceiling to wall. Barely out of square (probably 89.5 degrees). I looked at the charts that detail all the different angles for my compound miter saw. The angles were so close to the standard 90 angles (that are preset in saw) that I cut my first cut as if the ceiling/wall were a true 90.

So, the one piece of crown is up on the left. After putting up a 2" sample that tested the joint for the right side, I realized I had a problem. Turns out the wall to wall angle is pretty far off. I measure it at 92 degrees. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make this right.

So, to sum up, the left side of my inside corner is up, and cut with standard 90 miter/bevel. The wall/ceiling angle is just less than 90. Wall to wall angle is 92.

Any help would be great - thanks! (Oh, it's paint grade for what it's worth).
I wouldn't be so concerned about the wall to ceiling angle as much as wall to wall. You should be cutting the crown upside down at the angle it would be as if installed, this is will be in the nested position. All you need to cut is the miter. The position will automatically give you the compounding bevel. The bottom of your crown (most detail) will be up on your saw & against the fence. The top of your crown will be sitting on the base of your saw. Think upside down & backwards where the fence is your wall & the base of the saw is your ceiling & the right side cut will actually be the left side joint & the left side cut will be the right side joint when installed.

To cut crown on the flat you would have to use a compound miter cut(set saw with miter & bevel). For a tight miter measure the wall to wall angle & split this between each side of the cut. For a 89 degree corner each side of the miter will be 44.5 degrees to cut your joint for example. Crown comes in 3 different angles unless custom cut 38/52, 45/45, 52/38 degrees. Higher the wall bigger the degrees (first number) to angle the crown down for viewing from floor level. With your crown being 3-1/4" it is probably the 38/52 degree crown. The side with most detail is usually the bottom side of crown & this will sit against wall when installed & sit against the fence when being cut.

Best to check out some videos to give you an idea. Just Google - Cutting Crown & you will find many videos to watch. Easy once you understand the procedure

James
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Last edited by jlord; 06-27-2010 at 01:12 AM.
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post #3 of 40 Old 06-27-2010, 06:43 AM
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When I ran into this problem when installing crown in my house I found that the best solution was trial and error. I would cut the piece on my left (you could use either side, just my preference) to the correct length and normal angle. I would then use a piece of scrap to determine the angle needed to give a good fit. Once that was found I would cut the right hand piece to this angle.

George
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post #4 of 40 Old 06-27-2010, 09:41 PM
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Try to cope the moulding. Then just rasp, file it down if needed.
Get a book on crown with pictures. Google it. They make corner blocks (I don't like them, but some do) if it's too much a pain.

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post #5 of 40 Old 06-27-2010, 10:56 PM
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I agree with craftsman jay. A coped joint is much better. It will make it easier than trying to find the angles. Always start with a full piece of crown on the wall you see when you walk in the room. Just a rule of thumb I was taught by a master carpenter. There is a wealth of knowledge on the Internet. Try reading up on some info about coping. Good luck, hope it works well for you.
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post #6 of 40 Old 06-28-2010, 02:38 AM
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You should still cut to the degrees of an outside corner for a tight joint or you might have an open miter.

James
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post #7 of 40 Old 06-28-2010, 08:02 AM
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Inside corners should be coped. If you have a 92 degree wall set the saw at 1 degree from 45 and cut an inside miter. Then using a coping saw follow the profile of the cut. Using a dremel or a file make the cut real purty. Then it will fit snug to your other crown. On the outside corners you need to cut the angle as close as you can. If it is off a bit you can roll the molding so they both line up nice. Use lots of glue and a few nails.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
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post #8 of 40 Old 06-28-2010, 02:33 PM
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Click here for some ideas on doing crown molding
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post #9 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertalbert
Hi there, I am putting in some 3-1/4" standard crown molding. I measured the angle of the ceiling to wall. Barely out of square (probably 89.5 degrees). I looked at the charts that detail all the different angles for my compound miter saw. The angles were so close to the standard 90 angles (that are preset in saw) that I cut my first cut as if the ceiling/wall were a true 90.

So, the one piece of crown is up on the left. After putting up a 2" sample that tested the joint for the right side, I realized I had a problem. Turns out the wall to wall angle is pretty far off. I measure it at 92 degrees. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make this right.

So, to sum up, the left side of my inside corner is up, and cut with standard 90 miter/bevel. The wall/ceiling angle is just less than 90. Wall to wall angle is 92.

Any help would be great - thanks! (Oh, it's paint grade for what it's worth).
Bosch angle finder if you are not comfortable coping which I agree should be done.This device is amazing. Take your crown and rest it in device which will tell you spring hit enter. Spring is now saved now take it up the ladder and put it in corner of wall this gives You the corner hit enter twice it will give you the miter hit enter again it will give you the bevel set your saw to left at these degree lay crown on flat with bottom edge of crown towards you cut crown. Set saw to right repeat
Perfect every time
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post #10 of 40 Old 12-11-2010, 02:23 PM
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I just finished with crown in my family room. I bought a corner piece that you nail up in the corners and then just install the moulding to each side of it. Very easy and I think it looks better with it than with it, IMHO.
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post #11 of 40 Old 12-12-2010, 05:36 AM
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I really never have been able to uderstand why certain subjects create so much confusion?Not particularly this thread,its been fairly straightfwd............but Crown in general?

Will not bore ya'll with info about installing then....knowing you'll figure it out and do a fine job.

What I will comment on is the wall surface that you're mounting to.Lets assume(dangerous)its drywall.Have you seen how inside crnrs are taped and mudded?You have in effect big flat planes that again,we'll assume flat that have a buildup of mud at several key areas.Corners,inside and out....joints....and for this disc. we can dismiss nailheads.Its this buildup,in some cases ALOT,that skew inside/outside cornrs from square.....this also applys to plaster walls that utilize bluebd and expanded metal crnr "tape".

Won't bore ya'll on how to fix this....just trying to lay some groundwork here.Try to understand HOW a particular crnr got "out of sq" in alot of cases will bring you to a fact based decision WRT trim(same thing happens with base)and its subsequent install.

A nice 6' straight edge is a valuble tool.Pc of 1/4x2x72 aluminum is decent.Heck,I've hung onto old alum. sliding glas door styles.These make great staright edges for setting door jambs....keep the lockset style(has handle hole built in).Just sayin BW


Edit to add,a wall buttjoint can be a real nightmare if its in a direct line of sight and we have chair-rail or worse yet,runnin some high$$ dado section.For the most part drywallers(pro's) do a pretty good job of keeping buttjoints out of sightline.....but sure as we're planning any sort of wood/dyywall interface they bloomin show up like a sore thumb.Be very aware.

Last edited by BWSmith; 12-12-2010 at 05:49 AM.
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post #12 of 40 Old 12-12-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlord View Post
I wouldn't be so concerned about the wall to ceiling angle as much as wall to wall. You should be cutting the crown upside down at the angle it would be as if installed, this is will be in the nested position. All you need to cut is the miter. The position will automatically give you the compounding bevel. The bottom of your crown (most detail) will be up on your saw & against the fence. The top of your crown will be sitting on the base of your saw. Think upside down & backwards where the fence is your wall & the base of the saw is your ceiling & the right side cut will actually be the left side joint & the left side cut will be the right side joint when installed.
I agree with above but he left out what your problem is, the corner not at a 90 degree angle. If the world was perfect you would have perfect corners but that hardly ever happens because of the floating and taping process.

This is the fix

Using a angle finder which it sounds like you have get the angle in this case 92 degrees. Now when making your cuts you split the angle (92) which means you make your cuts at 46 degrees.

I hope i didn't confuse you.
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post #13 of 40 Old 12-12-2010, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wsommariva View Post
I just finished with crown in my family room. I bought a corner piece that you nail up in the corners and then just install the moulding to each side of it. Very easy and I think it looks better with it than with it, IMHO.
That's cheating.

Really I had those also but it was because of look not to make it easier to install crown and in my case base. It was allot easier I have to admit and so was having rosettes on the door trim.
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post #14 of 40 Old 12-12-2010, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
I agree with above but he left out what your problem is, the corner not at a 90 degree angle. If the world was perfect you would have perfect corners but that hardly ever happens because of the floating and taping process.

This is the fix

Using a angle finder which it sounds like you have get the angle in this case 92 degrees. Now when making your cuts you split the angle (92) which means you make your cuts at 46 degrees.

I hope i didn't confuse you.
Hi Richard,
The second half of my post (#2) did address an out of square corner & splitting the angle.

James
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Last edited by jlord; 12-12-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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post #15 of 40 Old 12-12-2010, 10:02 PM
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Using the "old" bosch miter finder (not the new one that's out now) use the reciprocal angle. Your wall is 92? use 88 deg. the saw setting will be 44 deg.

This is because the miter finder reads "zero" when folded up. If it read zero wide open then it would give you the correct number. I can't remember why this is though. Every corner is two angles, 90 + 90, or on your wall, 92 + 88. The new bosch apparently takes this into account, but I haven't seen one yet to confirm.

Think of it this way: 92 degrees is wider than 90 degrees, so that means that your cuts have to be shallower- hence 44 deg. (44 + 92 =180 deg)

OR 180 - 92 = 88/2 = 44.

so greater than 90 degrees? you know your answer will be less than 45.

Less than 90 degrees? your answer will be greater than 45.

I also use a rediculously huge saw, the milwaukee 12". It's got the digital readout to 1/10th degree, so its very accurate. This is not necessary though, if your saw has a decent scale you can eye-ball it pretty close.

I cut my crown nested, so I only have to worry about the one number, its way easier than trying to get the "tilt" on the saw anywhere close to what is required.

After a while you find short cuts - what ever happens to 90 degrees, I do the opposite. 92? ok that's two greater than 90, so I will use the number 2 less than 90, which is 88. cofusing! try it with some scraps for a bit, it makes sense after a while. It took me a few years to get that through this old noggin :D but then I'm left handed.... LOL

Go to the site compoundmiter.com Wayne Drake has a really good book on this subject.

I'm starting a job tomorrow that 4 contractors have refused- its a vaulted ceiling! that throw all the rules out! I went to my book (mentioned above) and that gives me the numbers. Also got a download from the same firm that has the math for doing this.

Oh! and cope!
Mac.

Last edited by MrMac204; 12-12-2010 at 10:10 PM. Reason: clarify confusing stuff
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post #16 of 40 Old 12-13-2010, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlord View Post
Hi Richard,
The second half of my post (#2) did address an out of square corner & splitting the angle.

So you did. I missed that sorry.
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post #17 of 40 Old 12-13-2010, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MrMac204 View Post
Using the "old" bosch miter finder (not the new one that's out now) use the reciprocal angle. Your wall is 92? use 88 deg. the saw setting will be 44 deg.

This is because the miter finder reads "zero" when folded up. If it read zero wide open then it would give you the correct number. I can't remember why this is though. Every corner is two angles, 90 + 90, or on your wall, 92 + 88. The new bosch apparently takes this into account, but I haven't seen one yet to confirm.

Think of it this way: 92 degrees is wider than 90 degrees, so that means that your cuts have to be shallower- hence 44 deg. (44 + 92 =180 deg)

OR 180 - 92 = 88/2 = 44.


so greater than 90 degrees? you know your answer will be less than 45.


Less than 90 degrees? your answer will be greater than 45.

I also use a rediculously huge saw, the milwaukee 12". It's got the digital readout to 1/10th degree, so its very accurate. This is not necessary though, if your saw has a decent scale you can eye-ball it pretty close.

I cut my crown nested, so I only have to worry about the one number, its way easier than trying to get the "tilt" on the saw anywhere close to what is required.

After a while you find short cuts - what ever happens to 90 degrees, I do the opposite. 92? ok that's two greater than 90, so I will use the number 2 less than 90, which is 88. cofusing! try it with some scraps for a bit, it makes sense after a while. It took me a few years to get that through this old noggin :D but then I'm left handed.... LOL

Go to the site compoundmiter.com Wayne Drake has a really good book on this subject.

I'm starting a job tomorrow that 4 contractors have refused- its a vaulted ceiling! that throw all the rules out! I went to my book (mentioned above) and that gives me the numbers. Also got a download from the same firm that has the math for doing this.

Oh! and cope!
Mac.
Huh? A corner is what the angle finder says it is and the miters are cut to half of the angle. If your cutting a corner for an angle wall and its a 45 degree angle you cut the miters at 22.5, if the corner is 88 then the miters are cut at 44.
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post #18 of 40 Old 12-13-2010, 07:38 AM
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No it is not. I know exactly what he is talking about. Just like on a miter box where 90 is called 0. Sometimes you need to work backwards with the way the machines output the degrees.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
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post #19 of 40 Old 12-13-2010, 09:22 AM
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"That's cheating.

Really I had those also but it was because of look not to make it easier to install crown and in my case base. It was allot easier I have to admit and so was having rosettes on the door trim."

Yes I know but if I used the miter method I would have had to increase my medication. I also used prefabed ends that I don't like - to big. I wished I used the smaller cover pieces.
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post #20 of 40 Old 12-14-2010, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo G View Post
Inside corners should be coped. If you have a 92 degree wall set the saw at 1 degree from 45 and cut an inside miter. Then using a coping saw follow the profile of the cut. Using a dremel or a file make the cut real purty. Then it will fit snug to your other crown. On the outside corners you need to cut the angle as close as you can. If it is off a bit you can roll the molding so they both line up nice. Use lots of glue and a few nails.
Yeah, I use a dremel or sanding wheel on a grinder to clean up copes too. Some of the old guys I've worked with are super fast and accurate with a coping saw and hardly need to touch it up at all.
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