Built-In Kitchen Cabinet Stripping & Restoration ... Let Me Draw on Your Expertise - Page 4 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 93 Old 05-11-2018, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
I'm ready to complete the rebuilding of the base cabinet.

I decided to deepen the dimension of the cabinet by about 3-3/4" to create a little more counter space and also to possibly accommodate a deeper microwave oven on the counter top. To do this I removed the right cabinet side extension which attaches to the broom closet's face frame and replaced it with 3/4" furniture grade 5 ply with maple veneered faces. A 3-3/4" wide piece will make an extension on the left cabinet side; I'll attach them with biscuits to the solid wood 7/8" thick original cabinets. I'll need to sell my 15" Blumotion Tandem slides and get longer 18" slides; the slightly larger flatware drawers will be useful.

One concern I have is the left cabinet side is next to the sink ... it actually comprises a side splash for the sink a little higher up. So there's a possibility of water running down the outside of the cabinet and now it will have a small (3-3/4" wide) piece of plywood instead of solid wood, and potential for water damage where it meets the floor. Maybe I can seal it well with polyurethane.

I've made a new poplar face frame with M&T joints (my M&T skills are crazy rust and while rushing lie mad I made a couple tenons too thin, I'll need to make some shims so to tighten the joint). I'll cut out a section on the top rail to accommodate a cutting board like the original had, and make a couple runners for the cutting board, and also incorporate them into supports for the butcher block counter top, which I have but need to dimension to fit. I'll look into finding a router bit profile to match the old counter top (see 2nd & 3rd pics....I'm not sure how butcher block looks with an edge profile?).

One significant concern is that the bottom rail of the cabinet above the base cabinet is not level (see last 2 pics). The counter top holds my mircowave oven which is a tight fit with only about 1/2" - 3/4' clearance from that bottom rail. If I install the counter top level the gap will not be parallel and will be unsightly. Hum. Any solutions to this?

The original cabinet profiles are somewhat plain, however the base cabinet had a bead at the rear of the face frame, a nice touch and a small nod to decoration. I'd love to be able to put a bead on my face frame (it would be cool to make a scratch stock beading tool and do it by hand) but the case sides my frame will mate with are now plywood, so a bead would reveal the ply edge. Oh well.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07074.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	73.4 KB
ID:	359538  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07188.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	33.8 KB
ID:	359546  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07187.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	73.6 KB
ID:	359554  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07182.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	90.3 KB
ID:	359562  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07179.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	56.3 KB
ID:	359570  

Lovegasoline is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 93 Old 05-11-2018, 04:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
I don't see a problem with what you have built. What little water you might get on the cabinet polyurethane or would protect it. For the most part water exposure to cabinets is a problem for nitrocellulose lacquer and that is usually limited to the face and doors in front of the sink.

As far as design I think I would have either made a tight seam with the countertop or made the top above or below the countertop height.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #63 of 93 Old 05-11-2018, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
The issue of problems attributable to leaks is frankly is in past and attributable to negligent management.
Still plywood resting directly on the floor near a water source is something new to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
As far as design I think I would have either made a tight seam with the countertop or made the top above or below the countertop height.
Steve, I'm unclear what design aspect it is that you're referring to in your quoted comment above ... can you please expand on that? Thanks a bunch.
Lovegasoline is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 93 Old 05-11-2018, 05:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
The issue of problems attributable to leaks is frankly is in past and attributable to negligent management.
Still plywood resting directly on the floor near a water source is something new to me.




Steve, I'm unclear what design aspect it is that you're referring to in your quoted comment above ... can you please expand on that? Thanks a bunch.
Usually when I build base cabinets I will put nylon tacks on the bottom of the sides. This raises the cabinets up 1/4" off the floor so in the event there is ever any amount of water standing on the floor the cabinets are not sitting in water.

As far as what I said about the design with the top, where you have the left end of the wooden top rounded over I would have coped the end to fit the counter top if I wanted to make the height level with the counter. Making a seam like that is just awkward anyway using two different materials. It might have been simpler to make the wooden top a little elevated and caulked the seam where it butted into the counter. This would have also helped with the issue of water. Another option would have been to make the top height to where it just slid under the countertop.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #65 of 93 Old 05-11-2018, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
As far as what I said about the design with the top, where you have the left end of the wooden top rounded over I would have coped the end to fit the counter top if I wanted to make the height level with the counter. Making a seam like that is just awkward anyway using two different materials. It might have been simpler to make the wooden top a little elevated and caulked the seam where it butted into the counter. This would have also helped with the issue of water. Another option would have been to make the top height to where it just slid under the countertop.
I'm still confused ... the left end of what wooden top? There's only one counter/top; it doesn't connect with or mate to another horizontal surface. I'm not clear what edge you're referring to coping?
Lovegasoline is offline  
post #66 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
I’m ready to complete the base cabinet. It’s presenting a clamping/glue-up challenge so if anyone has a suggestion please share it.

The base cabinet is a PITA as there’s no reference surface that’s square, level, or plumb: sink, cabinets above, everything is skewed so I’ve struggled to strike a balance between practicality and appearance.

As explained w/photo in post #61 above, I’ve made a new face frame and extensions to the case sides to deepen the cabinet. The face frame is square and because the cabinet is not square, level, or plumb I’m trying to fudge it a little, bit am still getting some misalignment on the right case side/right faceframe stile connection. I won’t be able to trim or scribe the face frame to the case side on the right due to the already narrow right stile. Not sure how to conceal this defect.

Back to the clamping challenge:
I’ve used #20 biscuits for the edge joint on the case side extensions: on the left is an edge joint between 3/4” plywood and 1” poplar. Because of how close the sink cabinet is to the case side I can’t access the outside of the cabinet. Is there a good way to clamp this joint during glue up? Although I’ve hardly ever done any pocket hole stuff, I may have a little wood jig somewhere or can make one to shoot in a few pocket hole screws on the edge joint?
Or, drill 3 or 4 pilot holes on the original case side, several inches apart, parallel to - and a few inches back from - the joint, and shoot some long screws through the side of the existing case so half the screw length stands proud of the cabinet on either side, then use those as ‘posts’ for bar clamps to grab and pull the edge joint tight.

Any suggestions?

Oh yeah, regarding the face frame, best way to attach it to the case? Nail gun? Biscuits?

Last edited by Lovegasoline; 05-23-2018 at 05:02 PM.
Lovegasoline is offline  
post #67 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 05:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Not sure I understand your clamping issue. If you can get to the back side of the faceframe perhaps you could use something like the kreg screws to pull the joint together.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #68 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
The pic in post #61 shows the area.

Behind the left stile of the base cabinet face frame is the cabinet case side. I'm adding a 3-3/4" wide piece of 3/4" ply to the cabinet case side to make the cabinet deeper (so I can fit a deeper microwave oven on the countertop); essentially it's making a larger panel for the case side. Same thing on the right hand case side but the extension is longer and I have access for clamping).
The 3-3/4" wide strip of plywood is edge joined to the original cabinet side (latter made of 1" poplar) and I've cut #20 biscuit slots on both edges (plywood strip and original cabinet case). But there's nothing to attach a clamp to to pull them together during glue up. Further, access on the outside of the cabinet is restricted due to the sink cabinet being just a couple inches away on the outside. If this were a cabinet on a bench I could place a bar clamp to reach both outer extremes of the case sides and tighten it up, no problem.
But the cabinet in situ doesn't provide that option. Clamping forces will need to be in-line so the glued up panel is planar. For example, if I screwed a block on the inside of the original case side and used that as a
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07319.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	76.7 KB
ID:	361010  

Lovegasoline is offline  
post #69 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 07:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
If you doweled the 3 3/4" pieces to the existing face you shouldn't have to clamp it. Just slide it together with some glue and it shouldn't come loose. You could also toenail the side to the top.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #70 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
I already cut biscuits for the edge joint. As such, it's a pretty floppy joint and will be until it's glued and cured.
Lovegasoline is offline  
post #71 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
Face Frame to Case Gap

A separate topic:

Face frame gaps (see pics)

Upthread I mentioned a large gap between the face frame and case of another cabinet. I ended up using a a putty knife and an old Japanese saw blade in the gap to clean it out of gunk, dried paint stripper, paint, etc., then used a soft mallet to seat it as tight as it will go. It's much better now but there's still a small gap. How best to deal with that?

The face frame has a bead detail where it connects with the cabinet case, so if I prime and then use caulk in the gap it's likely to obscure and foul the crispness and evenness of the bead? Bondo?

???
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07313.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	79.0 KB
ID:	361034  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07314.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	72.0 KB
ID:	361042  

Lovegasoline is offline  
post #72 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
You would be surprised how well a glue joint holds that is just put together without clamping. Then the biscuits make it all the better. As long as the parts fit well you won't have anything to worry about.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #73 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top.
There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly.

Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?

Also, after the countertop is installed (which will occur later ... I'm awaiting arrival of an edge profile bit and will also likely finish and allow it to cure prior to installation) how best to treat the gap around the edges of the counter top inside the cabinet nook? [I think if I was fabricating this built-in from scratch a shallow dado would be useful to hide any gap in the mating surfaces].
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07315.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	41.0 KB
ID:	361050  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07316.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	63.0 KB
ID:	361058  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC07317.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	53.0 KB
ID:	361066  


Last edited by Lovegasoline; 05-23-2018 at 08:11 PM.
Lovegasoline is offline  
post #74 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:12 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
A separate topic:

Face frame gaps (see pics)

Upthread I mentioned a large gap between the face frame and case of another cabinet. I ended up using a a putty knife and an old Japanese saw blade in the gap to clean it out of gunk, dried paint stripper, paint, etc., then used a soft mallet to seat it as tight as it will go. It's much better now but there's still a small gap. How best to deal with that?

The face frame has a bead detail where it connects with the cabinet case, so if I prime and then use caulk in the gap it's likely to obscure and foul the crispness and evenness of the bead? Bondo?

???
Can you see the ends of it. It appears to be a tongue and groove beaded joint. It might be a piece of solid wood with a simulated joint. This is part of the detail.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #75 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,987
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top.
There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly.

Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?

Also, after the countertop is installed (which will occur later ... I'm awaiting arrival of an edge profile bit and will also likely finish and allow it to cure prior to installation) how best to treat the gap around the edges of the counter top inside the cabinet nook? [I think if I was fabricating this built-in from scratch a shallow dado would be useful to hide any gap in the mating surfaces].
If you are painting I would just caulk that. If you are staining you could mask around the spot and use wood putty. Then before it dries wash off the excess with a solvent appropriate for the putty. This would eliminate 99% of the sanding in a hard to sand place.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #76 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 97
View Lovegasoline's Photo Album My Photos
The joint isn';t perfectly oriented and I'd prefer to clamp it. The entire cabinet is skewed and I want to dry mount the face frame when I glue up the case side extensions ... I may need to tweak the alignment a little to match the faceframe ... and once I get it into position clamp it so it cures in the right place. It may take a little coercion to get it into position.
Lovegasoline is offline  
post #77 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 4,232
View Toolman50's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
I’m ready to complete the base cabinet. It’s presenting a clamping/glue-up challenge so if anyone has a suggestion please share it.

The base cabinet is a PITA as there’s no reference surface that’s square, level, or plumb: sink, cabinets above, everything is skewed so I’ve struggled to strike a balance between practicality and appearance.

As explained w/photo in post #61 above, I’ve made a new face frame and extensions to the case sides to deepen the cabinet. The face frame is square and because the cabinet is not square, level, or plumb I’m trying to fudge it a little, bit am still getting some misalignment on the right case side/right faceframe stile connection. I won’t be able to trim or scribe the face frame to the case side on the right due to the already narrow right stile. Not sure how to conceal this defect.

Back to the clamping challenge:
I’ve used #20 biscuits for the edge joint on the case side extensions: on the left is an edge joint between 3/4” plywood and 1” poplar. Because of how close the sink cabinet is to the case side I can’t access the outside of the cabinet. Is there a good way to clamp this joint during glue up? Although I’ve hardly ever done any pocket hole stuff, I may have a little wood jig somewhere or can make one to shoot in a few pocket hole screws on the edge joint?
Or, drill 3 or 4 pilot holes on the original case side, several inches apart, parallel to - and a few inches back from - the joint, and shoot some long screws through the side of the existing case so half the screw length stands proud of the cabinet on either side, then use those as ‘posts’ for bar clamps to grab and pull the edge joint tight.

Any suggestions?

Oh yeah, regarding the face frame, best way to attach it to the case? Nail gun? Biscuits?
My comment is in reference to installing your new face frame; since the cabinet will be painted, I would glue the face frame to the sides and install with four 2” finish nails on each side. The nails will be set, spackled and painted, so they will not be seen.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
Toolman50 is offline  
post #78 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 4,232
View Toolman50's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
The pic in post #61 shows the area.

Behind the left stile of the base cabinet face frame is the cabinet case side. I'm adding a 3-3/4" wide piece of 3/4" ply to the cabinet case side to make the cabinet deeper (so I can fit a deeper microwave oven on the countertop); essentially it's making a larger panel for the case side. Same thing on the right hand case side but the extension is longer and I have access for clamping).
The 3-3/4" wide strip of plywood is edge joined to the original cabinet side (latter made of 1" poplar) and I've cut #20 biscuit slots on both edges (plywood strip and original cabinet case). But there's nothing to attach a clamp to to pull them together during glue up. Further, access on the outside of the cabinet is restricted due to the sink cabinet being just a couple inches away on the outside. If this were a cabinet on a bench I could place a bar clamp to reach both outer extremes of the case sides and tighten it up, no problem.
But the cabinet in situ doesn't provide that option. Clamping forces will need to be in-line so the glued up panel is planar. For example, if I screwed a block on the inside of the original case side and used that as a
Do you have room to add a 1/4 panel of ply to the inside? If yes, this 1/4 panel would tie the two pieces together.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
Toolman50 is offline  
post #79 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 4,232
View Toolman50's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top.
There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly.

Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?

Also, after the countertop is installed (which will occur later ... I'm awaiting arrival of an edge profile bit and will also likely finish and allow it to cure prior to installation) how best to treat the gap around the edges of the counter top inside the cabinet nook? [I think if I was fabricating this built-in from scratch a shallow dado would be useful to hide any gap in the mating surfaces].
Looking at the picture, the gap seems minimum now. If you lower the the top another 1/4 it becomes unacceptable without an adjustment. I like your idea of using a shim and Bondo, but I would finish with a good silicon caulk around the edges meeting with the countertop.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
Toolman50 is offline  
post #80 of 93 Old 05-23-2018, 08:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 4,232
View Toolman50's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
The joint isn';t perfectly oriented and I'd prefer to clamp it. The entire cabinet is skewed and I want to dry mount the face frame when I glue up the case side extensions ... I may need to tweak the alignment a little to match the faceframe ... and once I get it into position clamp it so it cures in the right place. It may take a little coercion to get it into position.
If your face frame is square it wont matter if it overhangs one or both of the sides a little. It will not be noticeable from the front.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
Toolman50 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Overlay Pocket Door Kitchen Cabinet kktalker Design & Plans 1 09-29-2017 06:34 AM
Painting newly built kitchen cabinets zort General Woodworking Discussion 2 09-02-2017 11:35 AM
Painting newly built kitchen cabinets zort Wood Finishing 4 08-22-2017 10:08 PM
Using open locks and part associations to draw an upper range cabinet in eCabinets Scott Marshburn Woodworking Videos 0 01-20-2016 05:11 PM
Prepping for a Kitchen Cabinet Demo-...? MT Stringer Trim Carpentry & Built-Ins 3 09-28-2015 06:13 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome