SawStop brake cartridge Issue Discovered - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 21Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Unhappy SawStop brake cartridge Issue Discovered

A month ago my brake activated when the blade touched my intra miter gauge. My fingers were never in jeopardy, just a dumb move on my part for not paying attention. So the system worked as you'd expect it to -- blade stopped and retracted in a millisecond, leaving 2 tiny nicks barely 1/64" deep in the aluminum.Name:  IMG_7449.jpg
Views: 82
Size:  440.8 KBName:  IMG_7450.jpg
Views: 87
Size:  327.3 KB
But 5 new brake cartridges later (1 from Amazon and 4 from SawStop), my contractors table saw is still sitting in the garage lonelier than the MayTag repair man. That's right, none of the cartridges worked. Funny because my dado cartridge mounts perfectly and purrs like a kitten when I turn on the saw.Name:  IMG_7903.jpg
Views: 81
Size:  433.3 KB
Three of the 5 bad cartridges are Rev 2s, which won't lock down, and the other 2 are Rev 3s (apparently that's how you distinguish the 2 generations), which lock down okay, but when you turn on the machine, the motor shuts down in about a second.Name:  IMG_7887.jpg
Views: 82
Size:  337.2 KBName:  IMG_7897.jpg
Views: 80
Size:  333.1 KB
Finally Friday, SawStop, after weeks of having me do everything under the sun trouble-shooting the problem, apologized, saying it's not my table saw, that the company has received similar complaints and that SawStop's engineers have concluded there's a problem with both generations of cartridges, or at least from the batches mine came from. I was told by one of the trouble-shooter techs that's all they know to pass along at this time, and SawStop is working toward a fix and would let me know as soon as they resolve the problem.
Curious if anyone else has run into this issue.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 07:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 12,515
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
In the meantime you sit with an unusable saw and no idea of when you will have a usable saw?



What is the problem with the brake?


George
GeorgeC is offline  
post #3 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
You got me

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
In the meantime you sit with an unusable saw and no idea of when you will have a usable saw?



What is the problem with the brake?


George
That, I guess, is the $64,000 question. SawStop hasn't said yet. And the better question would be is why won't both versions work since 2 of the 5 lock down (the Rev 3s) and other 3 won't (the Rev 2s)? After measuring from rim to rim of the key hole of the Rev 2s with my calipers, the width appears to be many, many thousandths of an inch wider than the cartridge that came with the table saw in June, 2018, when Amazon delivered it. That is supposedly a Rev 2; it's not labeled the same way as these replacement Rev 2s.

The only clue may be these 2 pictures of the plastic housing SawStop sent me (date stamped Nov 14, 2019), each showing the housing to bear the letter "W" in 2 places. The tech asked me to compare all of the 5 new cartridges to the pictures to see if they had a "W" embossed on them in the same way. None has the "W." The tech said he didn't know what that necessarily meant. That was about a week before he told me the cartridges are the problem, not my table saw.SawStop brake cartridge Issue Discovered-image4.jpgSawStop brake cartridge Issue Discovered-image5.jpg

From what I gather, the techs on the frontlines are trained troubleshooters, not engineers. The engineers must be in another department altogether. But, yes, I'm still waiting.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 10:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 12,515
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
I believe that you said that the problem is that the new cartridges do fit your saw?


How long are you willing to wait for Sawstop to fix this problem?


George
GeorgeC is offline  
post #5 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Patience is wearing thin

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
I believe that you said that the problem is that the new cartridges do fit your saw?


How long are you willing to wait for Sawstop to fix this problem?


George
Actually, to be clear, only 2 of the 5 fit in and lock down solidly (the Rev 3s), but the saw turns off almost as fast as you turn it on. The other 3 new ones do not fit in and lock down (Rev 2s).

I hope to get an update sometime this week. If not I'll give them another call. When I learned Friday the brakes were the issue, it was because I called for the latest, so that was a little disheartening. It had been days since I'd heard anything. But for my call, I'd probably still be in the dark.

Like I said, I can cut dados all day long. That dado cartridge installs every time and the saw turns on and performs like nothing at all is wrong. And the original brake that activated fits in and locks down, too.Name:  IMG_7862.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  373.9 KB
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #6 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 11:03 AM
Wood machinist
 
difalkner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NW Louisiana
Posts: 4,919
View difalkner's Photo Album My Photos
I hate that's happening, bummer for you especially if you have work to do.

In our Praise Band, where we use iPads for our music, it occasionally happens that one of the iPads won't advance to the next page of music or a battery will die. Not a big deal if it's during a practice session but it's a killer if we're on stage during a live church service. So we keep printed sheets of music behind our iPads just in case. The point of this is what we say when an iPad won't act properly - If you live by technology you'll die by technology.

I still like my 1990 PM66 without any electronics - just a magnetic switch to start and stop.

SawStop should make this good to you and certainly replace all the faulty cartridges on their nickel. And they owe you a big-time apology for designing and manufacturing what is essentially garbage if these can't be used.

David

David

Curly Wood Shop on Etsy
David Falkner - Woodworking YouTube channel and Instagram
Our music at church - current videos Airline Baptist BC Facebook Live
Romans 3:23
difalkner is online now  
post #7 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 11:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,151
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
The following won't help your problem, and is not very useful. Still, every bit of information and every clue can help.

I have a SawStop PCS175 table with the original 10 inch brake cartridge that came with the saw. I have never triggered my SawStop table saw.

The original cartridge that came with my saw has a "REV 2-V6" sticker inside the cartridge, on top of the large, cylindrical Nippon Chemi-con 1000 microfarad capacitor.

When I change blades, I am careful to check the gap using the SawStop feeler gauge.

When I bought the PCS175, I also bought a spare cartridge. It is still in the original package. It has a REV 2-V6 sticker inside the cartridge, but the sticker is on the side of a Rubycon brand 1000 microfarad capacitor.

I also have a dado cartridge and use it with a dado stack.

I have given the SawStop demo twice, on a SawStop ICS. I was present, but not watching, when that same table saw was triggered by contact with an Incra fence. The experienced woodworker who triggered it replaced the blade and cartridge, and the saw continues to used without issue.
Tool Agnostic is online now  
post #8 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
I hate that's happening, bummer for you especially if you have work to do.

In our Praise Band, where we use iPads for our music, it occasionally happens that one of the iPads won't advance to the next page of music or a battery will die. Not a big deal if it's during a practice session but it's a killer if we're on stage during a live church service. So we keep printed sheets of music behind our iPads just in case. The point of this is what we say when an iPad won't act properly - If you live by technology you'll die by technology.

I still like my 1990 PM66 without any electronics - just a magnetic switch to start and stop.

SawStop should make this good to you and certainly replace all the faulty cartridges on their nickel. And they owe you a big-time apology for designing and manufacturing what is essentially garbage if these can't be used.

David
I hear you. Projects are backing up. I will say, SawStop has been more understanding than I ever thought possible under the circumstances. But with each week leading into another, it has begun to get a little frustrating. Today I send back the bad cartridges for them to analyze. And while I know that's going to take more time, I really would like to get to the bottom of this so, hopefully, no one else has to go through it.
difalkner and Gary D like this.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #9 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
The following won't help your problem, and is not very useful. Still, every bit of information and every clue can help.

I have a SawStop PCS175 table with the original 10 inch brake cartridge that came with the saw. I have never triggered my SawStop table saw.

The original cartridge that came with my saw has a "REV 2-V6" sticker inside the cartridge, on top of the large, cylindrical Nippon Chemi-con 1000 microfarad capacitor.

When I change blades, I am careful to check the gap using the SawStop feeler gauge.

When I bought the PCS175, I also bought a spare cartridge. It is still in the original package. It has a REV 2-V6 sticker inside the cartridge, but the sticker is on the side of a Rubycon brand 1000 microfarad capacitor.

I also have a dado cartridge and use it with a dado stack.

I have given the SawStop demo twice, on a SawStop ICS. I was present, but not watching, when that same table saw was triggered by contact with an Incra fence. The experienced woodworker who triggered it replaced the blade and cartridge, and the saw continues to used without issue.
I checked the gap, too, and with multiple techs on the phone at the same time and all agreed my gap was fine and shouldn't be the cause of the problem. On Friday I even volunteered to drive my saw to either Atlanta or Miami, assuming in markets that size there's a SawStop certified repair tech available to check out if the problem was with my saw. That's when I was told it's the cartridges, not my machine.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #10 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 01:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,151
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
Repeating what I think I read, just to make sure we all understand the problem:

* The only Rev 2 brake that locks down is the original cartridge supplied with the SawStop contractor saw. It has been triggered and cannot be used.

* Three new Rev 2s will not lock down. The cartridges insert on the two pegs and the electrical D-connector engages.
Q1: Does the key feel too shallow, like it doesn't seat all the way?
Q2: Does the key feel like it seats, but won't rotate?

* Two new Rev 3s can be seated and locked. The blade starts to spin, but then shuts off.
Q3: How fast does it react? Does the blade reach full speed before it shuts off?
Q4: In the past, did the blade ever reach full speed and stay on for a little while before the shut off occurred? (Maybe the first few times you used that particular brake?)
Q5: What is the flashing pattern on the lights when it shuts down? Fast? Slow? A numeric code?

* The issues seem so separate and distinct: A brake seating problem and a premature shutoff problem. Somehow SawStop believes that they are related to the cartridges and not the saw itself.
Q6: Has SawStop disclosed WHY they think it is the cartridges themselves?
Q7: Has SawStop disclosed that it is happening to others? Many others? How common is it?
Q8: If it is the cartridges, has SawStop disclosed that it it is happening to jobsite and cabinet models, or is the problem limited to the contractor saws only? They all use the same cartridge.

Q9: Could it be a misalignment in YOUR saw, just enough to cause problems with the key seating/locking or the key switch/sensor?
Keep in mind that the key operates an internal switch or sensor that prevents the saw from operating unless the key is fully seated and fully rotated. Perhaps turning on the saw with the Rev 3 cartridges add just enough vibration to trigger the internal key switch/sensor.

* Other questions:
Q10: Did you buy the SawStop cabinet saw from a local authorized dealer (maybe Rockler or Woodcraft or an independent retailer)?
Q11: Is your local dealer informed and actively involved?

If it were my saw, I would ask SawStop to agree to replace the saw if they cannot solve the problem by a mutually agreed date. Obviously the problem is limited to just a few users. Ask your local retailer to get involved and work with SawStop on your behalf. Find the name of the SawStop regional sales manager for your area - get their contact information and get them involved as well.
difalkner likes this.
Tool Agnostic is online now  
post #11 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 01:20 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6
View Bud G's Photo Album My Photos
Have you tried to run the saw in bypass mode?
Tool Agnostic and Gary D like this.
Bud G is offline  
post #12 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud G View Post
Have you tried to run the saw in bypass mode?
Yes. No dice.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #13 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 06:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 12,515
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowthatumentionit View Post
I hear you. Projects are backing up. I will say, SawStop has been more understanding than I ever thought possible under the circumstances. But with each week leading into another, it has begun to get a little frustrating. Today I send back the bad cartridges for them to analyze. And while I know that's going to take more time, I really would like to get to the bottom of this so, hopefully, no one else has to go through it.

This has been going on for WEEKS??? I assume that you are a hobbyist and not a commercial businessman.

If you are having this much of a problem I have to assume that there are businesses that are also having problems. I wonder just how they are helping them? Better than they are helping you I hope.



George
Nowthatumentionit likes this.

Last edited by GeorgeC; 09-07-2020 at 06:14 PM.
GeorgeC is offline  
post #14 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
This has been going on for WEEKS??? I assume that you are a hobbyist and not a commercial businessman.

If you are having this much of a problem I have to assume that there are businesses that are also having problems. I wonder just how they are helping them? Better than they are helping you I hope.



George
Good point, George. And, yes, I'm a hobbyist just trying to up my game with each new project.
difalkner likes this.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #15 of 31 Old 09-07-2020, 11:40 PM
Ancient Termite
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Posts: 881
View NoThankyou's Photo Album My Photos
There is so much gasoline that could be tossed on this fire. But it is why other table saw manufacturers don't want any part of the actual mechanism but want the ability to include the feature.
Nowthatumentionit likes this.

Rich
Just a dumb old paper boy from Brooklyn, NY
NoThankyou is offline  
post #16 of 31 Old 09-08-2020, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThankyou View Post
There is so much gasoline that could be tossed on this fire. But it is why other table saw manufacturers don't want any part of the actual mechanism but want the ability to include the feature.
On that point, Rich, you are speaking to the choir.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Nowthatumentionit For This Useful Post:
NoThankyou (09-09-2020)
post #17 of 31 Old 09-08-2020, 02:22 PM
Senior Member
 
_Ogre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Motown
Posts: 794
View _Ogre's Photo Album My Photos
with the price of spares, it's cost prohibitive to keep spares around. in your case it wouldn't have mattered if you had purchased a spare or 5. you'd think sawstop would have a bypass switch. maybe a button with warning stickers all over it, at least you'd be able to cut board. this is why sawstop will never become a mainstream saw, at least not in my shop.

i'd be rewiring that motor in a heartbeat
_Ogre is offline  
post #18 of 31 Old 09-08-2020, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Repeating what I think I read, just to make sure we all understand the problem:

* The only Rev 2 brake that locks down is the original cartridge supplied with the SawStop contractor saw. It has been triggered and cannot be used.

* Three new Rev 2s will not lock down. The cartridges insert on the two pegs and the electrical D-connector engages.
Q1: Does the key feel too shallow, like it doesn't seat all the way?
Q2: Does the key feel like it seats, but won't rotate?

* Two new Rev 3s can be seated and locked. The blade starts to spin, but then shuts off.
Q3: How fast does it react? Does the blade reach full speed before it shuts off?
Q4: In the past, did the blade ever reach full speed and stay on for a little while before the shut off occurred? (Maybe the first few times you used that particular brake?)
Q5: What is the flashing pattern on the lights when it shuts down? Fast? Slow? A numeric code?

* The issues seem so separate and distinct: A brake seating problem and a premature shutoff problem. Somehow SawStop believes that they are related to the cartridges and not the saw itself.
Q6: Has SawStop disclosed WHY they think it is the cartridges themselves?
Q7: Has SawStop disclosed that it is happening to others? Many others? How common is it?
Q8: If it is the cartridges, has SawStop disclosed that it it is happening to jobsite and cabinet models, or is the problem limited to the contractor saws only? They all use the same cartridge.

Q9: Could it be a misalignment in YOUR saw, just enough to cause problems with the key seating/locking or the key switch/sensor?
Keep in mind that the key operates an internal switch or sensor that prevents the saw from operating unless the key is fully seated and fully rotated. Perhaps turning on the saw with the Rev 3 cartridges add just enough vibration to trigger the internal key switch/sensor.

* Other questions:
Q10: Did you buy the SawStop cabinet saw from a local authorized dealer (maybe Rockler or Woodcraft or an independent retailer)?
Q11: Is your local dealer informed and actively involved?

If it were my saw, I would ask SawStop to agree to replace the saw if they cannot solve the problem by a mutually agreed date. Obviously the problem is limited to just a few users. Ask your local retailer to get involved and work with SawStop on your behalf. Find the name of the SawStop regional sales manager for your area - get their contact information and get them involved as well.
Q1: Yes
Q3: No
Q4: Yes. I seem to remember it staying on longer initially, but never again.
Q5: On both Rev 3s, after flipping the on-switch on, I wait and get the solid green light, good-to-go signal. Pull the paddle switch, motor goes on then off immediately. Green light then begins flashing fast until a solid red light comes on, then the green light goes to a slow flash.
Q6: No
Q9: I donít believe thatís the case since the dado cartridge works flawlessly and based on feedback from the tech. However, the Rev 3s seat easily and lock down. Perhaps too easily?

I didn't buy from a dealer. Got it from Amazon. Again I love the saw. I can't imagine ever going back to my ole Delta, which I euthanized in a solemn ceremony at our county dump 2 years ago. It could never measure up to a SawStop, but for 20 years it turned on every single time I hit the switch.
Tool Agnostic and NoThankyou like this.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
post #19 of 31 Old 09-08-2020, 03:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,151
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
I read your response to my questions above. Your answer to Q5 is interesting. The fast green flashing is the blade spinning down. The slow green flashing usually means that cartridge is too far from the blade (blade not detected):
https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2018/0...ing-explained/

Does the saw continue checking the cartridge key position while the blade is running? I assume so.

If the saw error is "cartridge key is no longer in the fully turned position" while the saw is running, how do the indicators display it? Only SawStop would know. It is far too dangerous to test yourself.

Here is my point:
If the Rev 3 cartridges are NOT causing a "cartridge key not fully turned" error after you start the saw, then it appears that the root causes of the Rev 2 and Rev 3 problems are separate and independent. At that point, I would press hard for SawStop to replace the saw immediately.

Whatever the cause, you have been doing SawStop's unpaid QA work for long enough. If SawStop is no closer to a solution, I would press them to replace the saw through the local dealer. Sawstop should let you get back to work while the local dealer does the troubleshooting with SawStop on that obviously problematic saw.

I have seen SawStop saws triggered many times, including one where an Incra fence touched the blade. In all cases, the cartridge and blade were replaced and the saw was put to work immediately after that with no problems.

Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 09-08-2020 at 03:11 PM.
Tool Agnostic is online now  
post #20 of 31 Old 09-09-2020, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Nowthatumentionit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 38
View Nowthatumentionit's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
I read your response to my questions above. Your answer to Q5 is interesting. The fast green flashing is the blade spinning down. The slow green flashing usually means that cartridge is too far from the blade (blade not detected):
https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2018/0...ing-explained/

Does the saw continue checking the cartridge key position while the blade is running? I assume so.

If the saw error is "cartridge key is no longer in the fully turned position" while the saw is running, how do the indicators display it? Only SawStop would know. It is far too dangerous to test yourself.

Here is my point:
If the Rev 3 cartridges are NOT causing a "cartridge key not fully turned" error after you start the saw, then it appears that the root causes of the Rev 2 and Rev 3 problems are separate and independent. At that point, I would press hard for SawStop to replace the saw immediately.

Whatever the cause, you have been doing SawStop's unpaid QA work for long enough. If SawStop is no closer to a solution, I would press them to replace the saw through the local dealer. Sawstop should let you get back to work while the local dealer does the troubleshooting with SawStop on that obviously problematic saw.

I have seen SawStop saws triggered many times, including one where an Incra fence touched the blade. In all cases, the cartridge and blade were replaced and the saw was put to work immediately after that with no problems.
Latest from SawStop is they havenít figured out why suddenly or how a bad batch of Rev 2s and 3s got out there. A tech telling me in so many words this has never happened, that they've been making these for years without any problem.

They say the Rev 2s arenít fitting in, ďthat darn key just wonít turn.Ē Multiple techs are getting calls about them as well as the Rev3s.

They say the bad Rev 3s appear to have a programming glitch, so thatís why they BELIEVE theyíre not functioning right.

Now think about this. If SawStop is just now figuring this out, how many of these bad cartridges are in circulation? And how did it happen that the assembly line started stamping out plastic housings for the Rev2s that are that far out of spec, and what's with this business of getting the programming of the Rev3s wrong?

That would mean anyone buying a brand new Sawstop saw, who managed to activate the brake, thereís no guarantee they'd get a new brake that works. Hence, they'd be in my same predicament.

According to who I talked to yesterday, the tech whoís worked the most on my case is supposed to get with me today. Thatís when Iíll ask him about which models are affected, how far and widespread SawStop suspects the problem is AND when I might see a cartridge on my doorstep that may actually work.
Tool Agnostic likes this.
Nowthatumentionit is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome