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-   -   Notre Dame is on fire in Paris...... (https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f15/notre-dame-fire-paris-212053/)

woodnthings 04-15-2019 04:55 PM

Notre Dame is on fire in Paris......
 
The historic icon may be too far gone to save. :sad2:

The cost of rebuilding would be astronomical, BUT the artisans no longer exist and it took over 100 years to build in the first place.


Just like all of these catastrophic losses of property and life, all the law enforcement and 1st responders gather after the fact, and posture and mourn publically to no avail.



Where was the GUARDIAN on duty patrolling inside the structure to prevent the spread of the fire and to report the immediate occurance of the blaze? The cost of someone paid to do this compared to the cost of repairs is like a grain of sand in a desert.
The same applies to situations where great loss of life occurs. No one was there to stop or prevent the tragedy.


We will now see all sorts of protection around other such monuments in Paris, maybe all over the world, but unfortunately it's too late for Notre Dame Cathedral. We also do not not know if this was an accidental result of the current renovation process OR was it intentional with obvious consequences typical of the current political climate in Paris.



When we will we learn, that an ounce of prevention is worth all the cures in the world? Common Sense has died long ago. :sad2:

Sleeper 04-15-2019 06:02 PM

WOW! That's so sad. I think it's got to be about 900 years old.

35015 04-15-2019 07:06 PM

Thanks for posting this Woodnthings...Words I do not have for this now...to much emotion for the loss..!!!

Steve Neul 04-15-2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud (Post 2050471)
Thanks for posting this Woodnthings...Words I do not have for this now...to much emotion for the loss..!!!

Likewise, I'm grieving as though someone close to me died. It was the same when Windsor Castle burned.

I did hear on the radio the President of France has vowed to rebuild it. It can be done. It's like the palace in St. Petersburg that was totally destroyed during WWII. They rebuilt it in every detail.

woodnthings 04-15-2019 09:28 PM

I am furious!
 
Someone MUST be held accountable. With a building full of priceless artifacts, there should have been strict control over the use of flammables, used rags, non-smoking in any area, and the workers needed to be vetted to establish their country of origin and background. To do so now is too damn late, the damage is done.



I wouldn't let just anyone into my home and I have established
controls and areas where strangers are not allowed. Forgive me for being skeptical, but it has worked so far for me. The church should be no different, and probably more so. My stuff is pretty much replaceable.



As a student of the Arts, those paintings, sculptures and other artifacts can not be duplicated, reproduced or replaced. There was a rash of Southern Baptist Church fires set by an arsonist who has been captured and charged, a purely racist act, not unlike the fraud in Chicago recently. Neither should be tolerated by anyone. The TV cable news just posted says arson and terrorism have been ruled out by authorities, but how do they know for certain? A rush to judgement is not in the interest of the people. :|

Steve Neul 04-15-2019 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodnthings (Post 2050505)
Someone MUST be held accountable. With a building full of priceless artifacts, there should have been strict control over the use of flammables, used rags, non-smoking in any area, and the workers needed to be vetted to establish their country of origin and background. To do so now is too damn late, the damage is done.



I wouldn't let just anyone into my home and I have established
controls and areas where strangers are not allowed. Forgive me for being skeptical, but it has worked so far for me. The church should be no different, and probably more so. My stuff is pretty much replaceable.



As a student of the Arts, those paintings, sculptures and other artifacts can not be duplicated, reproduced or replaced. There was a rash of Southern Baptist Church fires set by an arsonist who has been captured and charged, a purely racist act, not unlike the fraud in Chicago recently. Neither should be tolerated by anyone. The TV cable news just posted says arson and terrorism have been ruled out by authorities, but how do they know for certain? A rush to judgement is not in the interest of the people. :|

As old as the wood is in that building it wouldn't take very much to ignite it. It probably wouldn't take more than hitting a nail with a sawzall to ignite it.

Kerrys 04-15-2019 10:14 PM

Jumping to a few conclusions...

A lot of the artwork and other valuable items had been removed from the cathedral due to construction. Many of the items left were rescued by firefighters and workers.

I’ll wait for an official cause before making any judgement on how things were handled. Even then it is easy to have hindsight based opinions on how events unfolded.

A huge loss for France and the world.

FrankC 04-15-2019 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerrys (Post 2050517)
Jumping to a few conclusions...

A lot of the artwork and other valuable items had been removed from the cathedral due to construction. Many of the items left were rescued by firefighters and workers.

Iíll wait for an official cause before making any judgement on how things were handled. Even then it is easy to have hindsight based opinions on how events unfolded.

A huge loss for France and the world.

Agree, perhaps we should wait to hear what actually happened.

GeorgeC 04-16-2019 09:35 AM

As noted, many (most probably) of the artifacts were saved.


There are reports that the fire started high up in the structure, There is even one report that says there may have been 2 ignition points. If that is true it may make this fire something other than accidental. The :officials" have stated that the structure was saved and will be rebuilt. Donations are pouring in. One donation of about $248,000,000.


Too early to have many facts and speculation is just counter productive.


Regardless, it is a sad event.


George

johnep 04-16-2019 12:49 PM

The damage at Windsor Castle was rectified with excellent results. My wife and I visited after the restoration along with 1,000s.
The contractors who supervised the restoration would do a good job in Paris, but the French would never allow it and I am sure they have the skills locally.
I agree there should have been a night watchman to report the first sign of fire.
johnep

GeorgeC 04-16-2019 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnep (Post 2050553)
The damage at Windsor Castle was rectified with excellent results. My wife and I visited after the restoration along with 1,000s.
The contractors who supervised the restoration would do a good job in Paris, but the French would never allow it and I am sure they have the skills locally.
I agree there should have been a night watchman to report the first sign of fire.
johnep


How do you know there was not a watchman?


George

woodnthings 04-16-2019 05:51 PM

This may be helpful
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeC (Post 2050571)
How do you know there was not a watchman?
George


Here's a timeline of the events:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-and-timeline


https://news.sky.com/story/notre-dam...olded-11695107


Events captured by social media:
https://abc7news.com/timeline-notre-...ideos/5251701/

GeorgeC 04-16-2019 06:28 PM

As a matter of fact as it is now reported, there were a number of people at the Cathedral. Not just a night watchman. Fire alarms had been set off and investigated. The first alarm was investigated and no fire found. It was 20 minutes later after another alarm that a fire was actually found high up in the structure. There was more than one person involved in trying to find the problem.



For those who always want to lay blame and find fault with someone for virtually anything, the "fault" for the spread of this fire lies at the feet of those who designed and built the structure and those who remodeled it. The concept of modern fire protection breaks as practiced today did not exist when this structure was built and rebuilt.


Many modern fire alarms were in place throughout, but these can only report, they cannot extinguish nor slow the spread of a fire. These fire alarms probably help minimize the damage.


It is not the time to be pointing fingers, it is the time to help however we can.



George

Steve Neul 04-16-2019 08:25 PM

It's really too soon for anyone to determine what can be done. The debris will have to be removed and an engineering staff will have to determine if the masonry is intact enough to just replace what burned. It's entirely possible the affected area may have to be taken down all the way to the ground. The only good thing you can say is the will is there from all over the world to restore it.

35015 04-16-2019 08:25 PM

Thank You George...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeC (Post 2050577)
...It is not the time to be pointing fingers, it is the time to help however we can.

Thank you deeply George for you positive redirection and refocus of what is important...

There is a good chance this was some form of arson sabotage. Only time will tell, but that is moot and for the authorities to ascertain and deal with...

Those of us in historic restoration that work on such buildings are now only focused on proper restoration in the proper format and not to allow modernity to seep in because of pressure from the likes of the Insurance Industries.

"Disneyfication" and "facadism" both are a constant battle for those of us that work in this field...!!!...No doubt it will show up on this project as well primarily because of the vast sums of money available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeC (Post 2050577)
...The concept of modern fire protection breaks as practiced today did not exist when this structure was built and rebuilt.

On this point, I can share that such elements are an engineering and architectural impossibility. These types of heavy timber frame structures do not facilitate any type "protection breaks" because there are simply no void spaces to place them in.

Above the primary domes of the cathedral (stone and plaster) there is massive roof timber frame assemblies that are all open space and no void space (another reason fire "by accident" is very unlikely to happen!!!???) Another point of interest is that "timbers" per se are virtually impossible to get to burn to the point of structural collapse without very suspicious mitigating circumstances well beyond "very dry timbers." Even with dry timbers, this conflagration was most likely exacerbated greatly by the additional materials on the scaffolding above the domes that where under restoration. This would included, paints, tarps, planking, and various other materials that clearly created a..."fire load"...that was massive in nature and volume...which in turn greatly contributed to this disaster...

Accident...???...possibly...or someone took advantage of this very situation and made the best of it...Yet, as you say, that is not what is important now...Reconstruction in the proper context is!!!

Thanks again George for your refocus and kind solace...

j

35015 04-16-2019 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Neul (Post 2050583)
...It's really too soon for anyone to determine what can be done. The debris will have to be removed and an engineering staff will have to determine if the masonry is intact enough to just replace what burned. It's entirely possible the affected area may have to be taken down all the way to the ground.

No not really...In detail yes...

As to structural continuity within the stone, and any timber left in part of the one spire, that is not difficult to see for those that work in the field...

"Political agendas" and "ego clamoring" will undoubtedly start right away. It always does in such projects...and can often be as damaging as the fire itself long term.

The types of timbers used in this structure and the Parisian Limestone they employed is very durable in nature. Because the fire was "cooled" rapidly by such great efforts of the different fire departments the preliminary indicators thus fare are all positive at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Neul (Post 2050583)
...The only good thing you can say is the will is there from all over the world to restore it.

A wonderful thing is that, and deep thanks for it...!!!

Steve Neul 04-16-2019 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud (Post 2050587)
No not really...In detail yes...

As to structural continuity within the stone, and any timber left in part of the one spire, that is not difficult to see for those that work in the field...

"Political agendas" and "ego clamoring" will undoubtedly start right away. It always does in such projects...and can often be as damaging as the fire itself long term.

The types of timbers used in this structure and the Parisian Limestone they employed is very durable in nature. Because the fire was "cooled" rapidly by such great efforts of the different fire departments the preliminary indicators thus fare are all positive at this point.



A wonderful thing is that, and deep thanks for it...!!!

What I meant is the fire was very intense. That often causes stone to crack and chunks of it to come off. It will need to be cleaned before it can truly be evaluated. Then there is the affect of the flying buttresses which were added to hold back the pressure from the roof. With the roof gone they may be pushing the walls in.

35015 04-16-2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Neul (Post 2050589)
What I meant is the fire was very intense. That often causes stone to crack and chunks of it to come off...

Yes Sir...I understand that...

It actually called "thermal spalling."

Those of use that cross train in advanced historic restoration modalities to also work stone and ceramics alike learn very quickly about it...and...when its actually an issue...and when its not...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Neul (Post 2050589)
...It will need to be cleaned before it can truly be evaluated. Then there is the affect of the flying buttresses which were added to hold back the pressure from the roof. With the roof gone they may be pushing the walls in...

No Sir...not at all.

It will be self evident immediately to the trained observer. After that the only thing that must be ascertain is depth and interstitial compromise of load points, but even those are typically understood from the onset by other observable factors.

The "deep forensics" will be more aimed at long term details, possible structure alterations to "strengthen" and/or protect the structure in the future...but...with period specific means, and methods that won't take the building out of context.

There is a strong argument now in may projects like this to install water springlike systems, but there is also controversy attached to this that has merit why not to...

woodnthings 04-16-2019 09:34 PM

Was the fire predicted?
 
On a wild hunch I decided to Google Nostradamus and the Notre Dame fire. I am not any fan or follower, just curious to see what might be there and to my amazement here's what I found:
https://www.google.com/search?client...otre+dame+fire


This will probably generate some discussion here ...................... :nerd2:

Steve Neul 04-16-2019 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud (Post 2050595)
Yes Sir...I understand that...

It actually called "thermal spalling."

Those of use that cross train in advanced historic restoration modalities to also work stone and ceramics alike learn very quickly about it...and...when its actually an issue...and when its not...



No Sir...not at all.

It will be self evident immediately to the trained observer. After that the only thing that must be ascertain is depth and interstitial compromise of load points, but even those are typically understood from the onset by other observable factors.

The "deep forensics" will be more aimed at long term details, possible structure alterations to "strengthen" and/or protect the structure in the future...but...with period specific means, and methods that won't take the building out of context.

There is a strong argument now in may projects like this to install water springlike systems, but there is also controversy attached to this that has merit why not to...

That would be pretty irresponsible to start plans on the restoration without examining every square inch of the walls for fire damage. A quick glance might only be good to determine if it is stable enough for further examination. I'm sure as large as that structure is someone has been keeping measurements of where everything should be. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have to put up a temporary steel structure to hold everything in place while the roof is replaced. More than likely they will erect a temporary roof while this is being done to prevent any further water damage.


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