Spending more for better results - Page 3 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #41 of 53 Old 07-11-2017, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
Spending more money for tools does not guarantee better results.
Museums are filled with woodworking projects that were made with very simple tools.
Some on our forum often recommend beginning woodworkers to buy the best or at least buy the best you can afford. The cost of entering woodworking will become staggering if this advice is always followed. It's enough to keep beginners from getting involved in woodworking because it's just too expensive.
Power tools have improved over the years. New features have been added. More safety has been added. Hell if nothing else, they're all UL approved. Not so with early power tools.
I recommend any novice enter this craft slowly with a very long range plan to outfit their entire shop. Any tool can be replaced or improved on over a period of time.
As the skills improve so can the tool quality (or not).
If one board is cut on a $6,000 saw and another is cut on a $600 saw; most of us can not tell which Saw made the cut.
Okay let's get the discussion started.
If you want to take a year to make a project by hand tools and you know what you are doing with those tools it will look beautiful.

If you want to do the same job but in 1 month, get the better tools.

A $600 saw vs a $6000 saw is probably the difference between a hobbyist saw compared to a commercial production saw. The $6000 saw will be able to do almost everything the $600 saw, but probably not the other way around.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
Finishing is 3 parts chemistry and 1 part VooDoo http://lrgwood.com
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post #42 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 12:55 AM
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I could have the best tools that money can buy, but since I don't have the knowledge of how to make nice pieces, the stuff I make will still be low quality. Maybe some day, I will be able to make things I am proud of. I cannot blame my tools for my poor results. I can only blame myself.

And an experienced craftsman can create amazing things with inexpensive or primitive tools.

At the end of the day, a tool is just a tool. The tool isn't the important factor here, the person using the tool is much more a factor.

Sure, consider your needs, weigh the options, and buy the tool that best fits your budget and goals. But if you want better results. look in the mirror.
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... turning perfectly good wood into firewood every day ... :smile3:
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post #43 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 07:58 AM
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It would suck to have to run my business with low quality tools and hand tools. And although I don't use expensive tools I do get good quality. Most of my machines would be considered hobbyist level. Delta 3HP Unisaw, 3HP shapers, 1 1/2HP DJ 20, 3HP edge sander, 3/4HP drill press, 1HP dovetail machine.

Nothing automated, nothing greater than 3HP, nothing production. No edge bander, sliding tablesaw, SLR saw or CNC.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
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post #44 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 10:14 AM
where's my table saw?
 
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performance vs price....

As Leo G has said, you reach a point in price where the difference is more for increased production than for accuracy. If your tools are smooth and accurate you can produce work that is high quality.

Sometimes, material handling is just as important to accuracy as the actual tool, and this is where a large table surround on your table saw is necessary. It also adds immensely to the safe operation of the saw. You can't make accurate cuts if your work is slipping around and you are trying to hold on to it on at the same time. A good outfeed table was one of the last things I made for my saw and it's been one of the best things I ever did.

My tablesaw setup is a bit unique having 3 saws all linked together. Others here have made 2 saw setups or large surrounds, but I had a chance to buy a 3rd saw on Craigs List to match the other 2 saws I already own, so it was a "no brainer". It was another of the best things I have done to add convenience and safety to my shop. No more changing saw blades or swapping out dado sets for me.
They are 12" Craftsman motorized saws, no longer in production, so I jumped on that one. Again, nothing fancy or high end price wise, and the setup works very well and is very accurate.

When I need to bring a saw to a job site, my Bosch 4000-09 is one of the best. Lots of power and a decent fence that locks parallel to the miter slots. It cost around $500.00 new, so not too bad. I had to help a buddy who bought an older house reshingle the front wall where he had installed a new window and door. The siding was Red Cedar shingles in various widths which had come off the inside wall of the porch. His table saw was a El Cheapo, Craftsman 10", noisy, lousy fence, and no miter gauge. So... I ended up ripping the shingles off the existing straight edge to make them parallel. Some I had to "free hand" because there was no straight edge.... a bit scary, but very workable since they were only 3/8" thick at most.
After I tightened the adjustment on the fence it would stay locked pretty much parallel to the miter slots. It made me so appreciate my good Bosch!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #45 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Curl View Post
I could have the best tools that money can buy, but since I don't have the knowledge of how to make nice pieces, the stuff I make will still be low quality. Maybe some day, I will be able to make things I am proud of. I cannot blame my tools for my poor results. I can only blame myself.

And an experienced craftsman can create amazing things with inexpensive or primitive tools.

At the end of the day, a tool is just a tool. The tool isn't the important factor here, the person using the tool is much more a factor.

Sure, consider your needs, weigh the options, and buy the tool that best fits your budget and goals. But if you want better results. look in the mirror.

You've posted pictures of pretty cool projects you have done, it just takes a while to learn all the things, and it is so much easier to learn things on You Tube, 50 years ago when I started this stuff, it was trial and error

But you have to be careful about You Tube stuff, I have seen some real kamikazes on it. If it looks stupid or dangerous it probably is
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post #46 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 12:20 PM
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I love You Tubes ....but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catpower View Post
You've posted pictures of pretty cool projects you have done, it just takes a while to learn all the things, and it is so much easier to learn things on You Tube, 50 years ago when I started this stuff, it was trial and error

But you have to be careful about You Tube stuff, I have seen some real kamikazes on it. If it looks stupid or dangerous it probably is

In order to know what is stupid, wrong or just careless, you have to know more than they do.
It's often not too difficult, but to a novice who won't have the experience or knowledge, almost anything seems "believable" .... I see woodworkers do all kinds of things I wouldn't do and I just cringe.

Some of the "intentional mistake videos" are often pretty good.
Here's one of the best I know of to explain kickback on the table saw:
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post #47 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 12:34 PM
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The topic:
"Spending more money for tools does not guarantee better results. "
The work I did when I was first starting out was as good as, and maybe in some ways better than, the work I do today. Joining with a #7 plane, hand scraped finish, the fancy stuff done with a set of japanese laminated chisels and a pull saw. Main difference is that it took forever. Especially because I didn't know what I was doing, made a lot of mistakes and did things backwards a lot. But, it was fun anyway. If my world fell apart, lost my shop, I'd just go back to my pull saws, chisels, and planes. That said, those saws, chisels, and planes are extremely high-quality/high-cost American and Japanese tools and I wouldn't recommend going with Harbor Freight cheapo alternatives.
Main reason I got a $5K Hammer slider combo is how much more fun it is than my old Delta contractor rickety sloppy shaky thing. It's a matter of priority, perfectly happy driving my 14 year old car, not so happy with marginal tools.
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post #48 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Curl View Post
I could have the best tools that money can buy, but since I don't have the knowledge of how to make nice pieces, the stuff I make will still be low quality. Maybe some day, I will be able to make things I am proud of. I cannot blame my tools for my poor results. I can only blame myself.

And an experienced craftsman can create amazing things with inexpensive or primitive tools.

At the end of the day, a tool is just a tool. The tool isn't the important factor here, the person using the tool is much more a factor.

Sure, consider your needs, weigh the options, and buy the tool that best fits your budget and goals. But if you want better results. look in the mirror.
I just re-read this, and realized that it could be interpreted as though I am bragging about being rich. That was NOT my intention at all. I am NOT rich, and I am probably one of the more frugal people here. I could never afford or justify the top of the line power tools. I even have a hard time spending the money for the Stanley Sweetheart chisels that I envy.
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... turning perfectly good wood into firewood every day ... :smile3:
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post #49 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Curl View Post
I just re-read this, and realized that it could be interpreted as though I am bragging about being rich. That was NOT my intention at all. I am NOT rich, and I am probably one of the more frugal people here. I could never afford or justify the top of the line power tools. I even have a hard time spending the money for the Stanley Sweetheart chisels that I envy.
LOL! When I first read your post that is what I thought. I reread your post and realized what you meant.
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post #50 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
In order to know what is stupid, wrong or just careless, you have to know more than they do.
It's often not too difficult, but to a novice who won't have the experience or knowledge, almost anything seems "believable" .... I see woodworkers do all kinds of things I wouldn't do and I just cringe.

Some of the "intentional mistake videos" are often pretty good.
Here's one of the best I know of to explain kickback on the table saw:
How to Avoid a Table Saw Kickback captioned - YouTube

See if I would have watched that a couple weeks ago, my hand still wouldn't hurt LOL

I knew exactly what kick back was, just in too big of a hurry, and had a brain fart at precisely the wrong second LOL
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post #51 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 08:42 PM
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Dude, you are an exception ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catpower View Post
See if I would have watched that a couple weeks ago, my hand still wouldn't hurt LOL

I knew exactly what kick back was, just in too big of a hurry, and had a brain fart at precisely the wrong second LOL

It's not everyone that can have a kickback with a push stick.
Without a You Tube video of your mishap, you are the only one who was present to know what actually happened. Brain farts aside, the rear of the blade is just as dangerous as the front... just my opinion.

My kickbacks maybe 3 or 4, have only resulted in damage to the workpiece, making a semi circular groove on the back side and scaring the crap out of me, occasionally striking me in the gut where little damage resulted to any internal organs. I have sawed through the push stick intentionally for pushing thin strips past the blade, no big deal, as they are replaceable.

Glad to hear your are progressing and are back out in the shop, and driving the Gator, a 25 HP wheel chair..... Unfortunately, not Catpowered.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-12-2017 at 09:34 PM.
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post #52 of 53 Old 07-12-2017, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post

My kickbacks maybe 3 or 4, have only resulted in damage to the workpiece, making a semi circular groove on the back side and scaring the crap out of me, occasionally striking me in the gut where little damage resulted to any internal organs. :
Many years ago there were films available to show shop class safety where a kick-back resulted in a board impailing a worker. I mean major blood and gore. As a shop teacher I showed these "safety films" to each high school class. These films are no longer available because of their hard R rating I guess. Too graphic.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #53 of 53 Old 07-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
It's not everyone that can have a kickback with a push stick.
Without a You Tube video of your mishap, you are the only one who was present to know what actually happened. Brain farts aside, the rear of the blade is just as dangerous as the front... just my opinion.

My kickbacks maybe 3 or 4, have only resulted in damage to the workpiece, making a semi circular groove on the back side and scaring the crap out of me, occasionally striking me in the gut where little damage resulted to any internal organs. I have sawed through the push stick intentionally for pushing thin strips past the blade, no big deal, as they are replaceable.

Glad to hear your are progressing and are back out in the shop, and driving the Gator, a 25 HP wheel chair..... Unfortunately, not Catpowered.
I was sawing through the push stick, I unintentionally hit the back side of the blade with the push stick as I was moving the panel back to make another cut

It was just a stupid mistake that I guarantee you I will never do again
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