rip v crosscut - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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rip v crosscut

Regarding saw blades for tablesaws, RAS, miter, circular saws:

Aside from number of teeth, is there a difference between a rip and a crosscut blade? Is the tooth geometry different? Are both rip and crosscut ATB?
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post #2 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 02:56 PM
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That depends totally on the blade maker's designs. Some do have ATB on both rip and crosscut, but at different angles and hook. Some rip blades are just flat across. It's not consistent between manufacturers.

Dave in CT, USA
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post #3 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 04:38 PM
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What is ATB?


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post #4 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 04:45 PM
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post #5 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
What is ATB?


George

As a general rule ATB is for crosscut not ripping , although i have seen a couple blades with ATB ripping.


http://circularsawblade.net/atb
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post #6 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 09:04 PM
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For what do the letters ATB stand?


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post #7 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 09:23 PM
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For what do the letters ATB stand?


George
It stands for alternative top bevel. The tips of the teeth alternate at about 15 degrees left and right to keep the blade from pinching when cross cutting so there isn't as much tear out.
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post #8 of 15 Old 12-11-2018, 11:11 PM
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rip v crosscut

Saw blade info:

ATB Alternating top bevel
ATB + R -ATB + Raker
Hi-ATB extra steep grind
(80 - 100 tooth with shallower Hook Angle for glass-smooth finish cut)
!!! Use Hi-ATB for Miter Saw!!!
Triple Chip Teeth - use for chip prone materials (melamines, laminates, solid surface, plastics, metals) or for fine crosscutting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by WesTex; 12-11-2018 at 11:15 PM.
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post #9 of 15 Old 12-12-2018, 12:32 AM
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Here's what the different grinds are for .....

This graphic shows what each grind is made to do best:

http://freespaceway.com/tablesaws/20...le-saw-blades/


Every blade type chart:
http://www.bingapis.com/images/searc...cw=1261&ch=867

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-12-2018 at 12:50 AM.
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post #10 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies.

They led me to another question, however. This doc saw_blade_ToothGeometry.pdf says Flat Top Grind is most effective when cutting with the grain. Does that mean 'with the grain,' as in, when using a hand plane, in order to have a cleaner cut, one wants to plane with the grain rather than against the grain. Or doesn't it matter with a circular saw whether one is with or against the grain, and their use of the phrase "with the grain" was a loose way of describing a rip cut?



That's a convoluted question. The bottom line is, when using a circular saw, does grain direction matter in any case? Do blades perform better when cutting with the grain? Would this explain why some people get smoother rip cuts?
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post #11 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 11:38 AM
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"with the grain" is ripping for a table saw. planers and joiners are two where paying attention to the grain is good practice.


saw have more trouble clearing saw dust from the kerf when ripping. some tooth designs do a better job at carrying away the saw dust than others. but note that this is no 'absolute' rule. ripping thin materials works with combination / all purpose type blades. thicker materials and gummy/sticky wood types are situations where a purpose rip blade will help.
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post #12 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 02:14 PM
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It's really simple ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gj13us View Post
Thanks for the replies.

They led me to another question, however. This doc saw_blade_ToothGeometry.pdf says Flat Top Grind is most effective when cutting with the grain. Does that mean 'with the grain,' as in, when using a hand plane, in order to have a cleaner cut, one wants to plane with the grain rather than against the grain. Or doesn't it matter with a circular saw whether one is with or against the grain, and their use of the phrase "with the grain" was a loose way of describing a rip cut?



That's a convoluted question. The bottom line is, when using a circular saw, does grain direction matter in any case? Do blades perform better when cutting with the grain? Would this explain why some people get smoother rip cuts?

Cutting with the grain typically means cutting down the length of a board. Cutting across the grain typically means cutting across the width of a board.

Boards are typically cut to length that are usable for building projects when speaking of construction lumber, like 2 X 4's etc being 8 ft long for studs. So, cutting down the length or "ripping" would give two 2 X 2's that are 8 ft long.

Ripping is cutting down the length or with the grain. A "ripping" blade will have fewer teeth and larger gullets between them to carry away the stringy chips from the long grain.

Cross cutting is cutting across the width or across the grain and that blade will have smaller teeth and more of them because the long grain is chopped up in finer pieces. Simple.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #13 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 02:31 PM
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Most of the wood cells in wood are long hollow tubes.



A ripping blade can cut those apart along their length.
The blade (as above) is made so the long and stringy chips are flushed out.
There's also an assumption that you are going to do some kind of finishing to the rough-cut surface, like planing or sanding.


A cross-cut blade has to chop the wood cells open.

More teeth is good, much more work to cut and clear away the choppings.
60-80 skew chisels on a wheel.


I assume that all the blades I own will cut out 1/8" of wood.

I confess that I've never got beyond the rough workings of benches and supporting tables.


I never got the chance to ask my Dad about so many of these things so you just read what I figured out over the years.
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post #14 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gj13us View Post
Regarding saw blades for tablesaws, RAS, miter, circular saws:

Aside from number of teeth, is there a difference between a rip and a crosscut blade? Is the tooth geometry different? Are both rip and crosscut ATB?
For most blade manufacturers, the short answers are yes, yes, and no:
* Yes, besides tooth count, there is a difference between a rip and a crosscut blade.
* Yes, the tooth geometries are usually different.
* No, rip and crosscut blades are not both ATB. Rip blades are often TCG.

There are other differences, too. Rip blades have much larger gullets than crosscut blades.

The hook angle differs between a rip blade and a crosscut blade. In general, rip blades have higher positive hook angles. Crosscut blades have low hook angles, and sometimes negative hook angles.

There are also similar hook angle differences between blades designed for table saws and blades designed for miter saws, where miter saw blades have negative hook angles.
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post #15 of 15 Old 12-14-2018, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gj13us View Post
...Does that mean 'with the grain,' as in, when using a hand plane, in order to have a cleaner cut, one wants to plane with the grain rather than against the grain. Or doesn't it matter with a circular saw whether one is with or against the grain, and their use of the phrase "with the grain" was a loose way of describing a rip cut?...That's a convoluted question. The bottom line is, when using a circular saw, does grain direction matter in any case? Do blades perform better when cutting with the grain? Would this explain why some people get smoother rip cuts?
You have asked both some very easy questions (and gotten good answers!) and some not so easy to answer well...

I teach my students to always start with hand tools...as the tools and the materials will teach you as much (I think more???) than any teacher "flapping gums" ever could...

As such, logic dictates that a table saw should be treated just like a hand plane or hand saw, so yes...grain direction most certainly does matter. Even knowing (or being able to recognize) where the top of a tree was and where the root ball by reading the grain and wood is a skill that has been lost by most but not all of us...

Now, if only a "wood machinist" for the most part and using big tools to do the brunt of all you woodworking, these details tend not to make as much a difference to the person doing the work. It's a different quality and style of work, and very often with a much different goal set and perspective of the craft. It all depends on you and your goals in woodworking.

As an example, we are very concerned with authenticity and style because we finish everything by hand and do a lot of "hand only" work with just hand tools because of the tradtional nature of our projects and craft work we do. However...our table saw is a vintage Northfield with a 18" blade on it so grain pattern is only important to us...that saw could care less...and cuts anything and in any direct with just about any blade you put into it...!!!...which also makes it very dangerous. I comment on that only because a lot of your questions have as much to do with the blade as the saw and your knowledge of application...

Good luck and enjoy the saw dust!!!

j
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