Newbie needs suggesstion Tablesaw - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Newbie needs suggesstion Tablesaw

I am new to carpentry, have been an auto tech for 37 years.
I am thinking of going into carpentry as a hobbyist like to make things with my own hands.I am now 55 yrs old .

Which of these table saw is better:

JPS-10: 10'' ProShop 1-3/4HP 30'' CW Table Saw $999.00

The new JETģ ProShop Tablesaw features the details you've come to expect from a high end cabinet saw; in the compact design of a contractor-style saw. What ever your current or future shop needs, the ProShop 10" Tablesaw offers you the choice of a saw that will work for you for decades to come.

Powermatic Model 64A with extension table and 30'' Accu-Fence
$999.99EA

Thanks in advance for all your help.
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post #2 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 01:26 PM
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The PM64a is a traditional contractor saw with the motor hanging out the back. That's a 60 year old design with several problems associated with the motor location. 10 years ago, the PM64a would have been considered the best in that class, and may still be...however, the modern hybrid saw is essentially an evolution of the traditional contractor saw design. The hybrids basically move the motor inside the enclosure and eliminate many of the disadvantages of the contractor saw design. The hybrids offer a smaller footprint, better dust collection, a shorter drive belt (lower vibration and more efficient power transfer), more mass, and doesn't pose the lifting hazards that an outboard motor does when the motor is tilted. The design advantages of the hybrid are pretty much one sided unless you need to remove the motor frequently.

With that said, at even money I'd choose the Jet Proshop in a heartbeat over any contractor saw. There's simply no advantages to buying the outdated technology...it's like picking a carberator over fuel injection. I'd also add the Grizzly G0661, Grizzly G0478, Shop Fox W1748, GI 50-220 CM1, and Craftsman 22124 to the list of hybrids. You may even want to take a look at the new Ridgid R4511 or Steel City 35920 hybrids.

If you have 220v available, the Grizzly G1023SL is on sale for $1075 delivered. This is a 3hp industrial cabinet saw that is considerably more robust than any of the hybrids, and is yet another level beyond the hybrids.


Last edited by knotscott; 06-17-2009 at 08:58 AM.
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post #3 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 02:10 PM
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Well, you are approaching this in the correct way by asking for advice.
My son bought me my Craftsman 10Ē table saw for fatherís day 15 years ago and had to live with a lot of shortcomings because I didnít want to hurt his feelings. Make sure the fence is right for you. My biggest grips were the fence, miter gauge, and switch, which all can be fixed, but why not start off right. Itís going to cost the same in the end.
That Grizzly sure looks nice, I would trade my saw for that in a heartbeat.

JohnnyB
Iím a die hard DIY guy. Donít tell me to hire someone for what I can do myself.
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post #4 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 03:56 PM
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"The hybrids offer a smaller footprint, better dust collection, a shorter drive belt (lower vibration and more efficient power transfer), more mass, and doesn't pose the lifting hazards that an outboard motor does when the motor is tilted. The design advantages of the hybrid are pretty much one sided unless you need to remove the motor frequently. "

I guess as a person with a 25 year old "ancient" saw I am pretty hard pressed to see these as necessarily advantages.

"doesn't pose the lifting hazards that an outboard motor does when the motor is tilted" I do not understand what this is.

If I had to pay more for the hybrid saw vs the "outboard motor" saw I would stick with the ancient technology. I have never been one to be in love with technology just for the sake of technology.

G

Why is the smaller footprint an advantage? Are you going to store something under it? My saw with legs does not have much more of a footprint.

I agree that dust collection is an advantage IF AND THAT IS A BIG IF you are going to set up for dust collection. A person like me who moves the saw around the garage to use it does not have a dust collection setup.

A shorter drive belt does not to me offer any advantages. I have no vibration problems to start with. Power transfer is perfectly adequate. The only time the motor sticking out the back is when I am trying to get all of my tools as close together as I can so I can get a vehicle in the garage.
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post #5 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 04:55 PM
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George - Your saw was likely purchased before hybrids were available, as was my GI contractor saw in 2003 (which was sold for a hybrid in 2005). Hybrids have many of the advantages of a cabinet saw. This isn't a comparison of our former saws to a hybrid, it's a comparison of like-priced new saws for a would-be buyer. If the savings were significant, it would be an advantage for the PM64, but that's not the case. Even though the PM64a is a nice saw, at even money it lacks the design advantags a hybrid offers....both saws will cut wood well....that's not the issue. The aspects listed are advantages in favor of the hybrid... individual opinions of how important they are vary, but they're advantages nonetheless. If the belt on your saw was shorter, you'd have more power to the blade than with a longer belt, plus there'd be less vibration....can't imagine that anyone would rather have less power and more vibration if given a choice. One thing I didn't really get into is the leverage caused by the outboard motor on the trunnions which can cause problems with the alignment, plus can just plain get in the way....there's simply no need to go that route any longer unless the motor needs to be removed frequently. There are feature differences like the fence, handwheels, guard, throat insert, etc., some of which may favor the PM but those are mostly subjective. Blade selection and alignment will ultimately determine the end performance of both.
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post #6 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 05:59 PM
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knotscott, the advantages you listed were for a hybrid vs a traditional. You were not listing advantages of a new saw vs an old one.

An advantage is an advantage or it is not an advantage. Does not matter when the saw was built. I was challenging that the things that you listed as advantages were only advantages to someone who wanted that feature. Not absolute advantages. If they are absolute advantages then they will stand the test of time. They will be advantages for the hybrid as opposed to a new bought saw. These advantages also must be advantages to the potential user.

If I was buying a saw tomorrow, I would see none of the advantages that you listed as being anything that was desirable to me. I did not see you list any advantages that would have any bearing on the quality of the cut that could be made with the saw. As I stated previously, there is no vibration with my current saw nor is there any lack of power. How much power would you gain with a shorter belt? Maybe 1/4 of one percent? If that? Can you cite any statistics?

From a practical woodworking standpoint I would say that there is virtually no difference in the saws. If you happen to like the looks of the more modern saw then for certain you should purchase that one. If you are going to set up a shop that will have a dust collection system than again the hybrid is the better saw for you.

To me the quality and usefullness of the fence features are FAR more important than where the motor is mounted. When I am window shopping saws in the stores the first thing I look at and handle is the fence.

To each his own I guess.

George
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post #7 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 07:41 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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If you read the specs on the GRIZ

You have a saw with power, cast iron heat treated 27 x 40 table,
T slot mitergages, a great fence, magnetic safety switch and price point at $75 more the our OP's original budget. I would also get one in a heartbeat if I didn't already have too many as it is now. If I were starting out in woodworking as our OP is, then I probably would buy Grizzly tools through out, I have heard nothing at all bad and only good about them. Now is the time to wire the shop for 220volts and be done with it. You can run no 12 wire to most tools on 220 up to 30 amps. I own 2 Grizzly 3hp shapers and the quality is great. They have come along way form the original imports. I think the Steel City and Shop Fox are also imports, knotscott will correct me on this. I also have the Craftsman 22124 saw at 1 3/4 Hp, not really enough for ripping 2xs but will pass. This saw listed for $1200 and I think the Grizzly is far better all other things being equal, it has more power. The fence is a Biesemeyer style on both. Set and forget it. Aways square and digital tape readout. Now there just another opinion for you sir. bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #8 of 16 Old 06-06-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
I agree that dust collection is an advantage IF AND THAT IS A BIG IF you are going to set up for dust collection. A person like me who moves the saw around the garage to use it does not have a dust collection setup.
Oh, yes I forgot about the dust collection. I wish I had Dust Collection.

JohnnyB
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post #9 of 16 Old 06-07-2009, 10:49 AM
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I would go with a cabinet design over an older style contractor design on any given day of the week (whether it be a full true cab saw, or a hybrid). If the fence is superior on the contractor, that is something that could be addressed with a future upgrade.
Even IF, and thats a big IF, I don't want dust collection today... I might want it tomorrow
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post #10 of 16 Old 06-08-2009, 02:12 AM
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you may consider Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand

It is very popular
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post #11 of 16 Old 06-08-2009, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Ridgid R4511

Quote:
Originally Posted by knotscott View Post
The PM64a is a traditional contractor saw with the motor hanging out the back. That's a 60 year old design with several problems associated with the motor location. 10 years ago, the PM4a would have been considered the best in that class, and may still be...however, the modern hybrid saw is essentially an evolution of the traditional contractor saw design. The hybrids basically move the motor inside the enclosure and eliminate many of the disadvantages of the contractor saw design. The hybrids offer a smaller footprint, better dust collection, a shorter drive belt (lower vibration and more efficient power transfer), more mass, and doesn't pose the lifting hazards that an outboard motor does when the motor is tilted. The design advantages of the hybrid are pretty much one sided unless you need to remove the motor frequently.

With that said, at even money I'd choose the Jet Proshop in a heartbeat over any contractor saw. There's simply no advantages to buying the outdated technology...it's like picking a carberator over fuel injection. I'd also add the Grizzly G0661, Grizzly G0478, Shop Fox W1748, GI 50-220 CM1, and Craftsman 22124 to the list of hybrids. You may even want to take a look at the new Ridgid R4511 or Steel City 35920 hybrids.

If you have 220v available, the Grizzly G1023SL is on sale for $1075 delivered. This is a 3hp industrial cabinet saw that is considerably more robust than any of the hybrids, and is yet another level beyond the hybrids.

http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2009/01...rid-table-saw/

For a beginner i think this should do fine price wise and i also like 120 V / 240 V AC. I am going to compare others too before making a decision. Thanks to one and all who took time to give me advise.
Mel
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post #12 of 16 Old 06-08-2009, 10:34 AM
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I'll give the grizzly my vote too. Their customer support is second to none, and every one I know who has a grizzly loves it.
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post #13 of 16 Old 06-08-2009, 11:35 AM
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Toolcrib Hybrid saw tests

Here's the link with a bunch of others links to tablesaw tests;
http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2009/01...-jet-and-more/ This should help make some decisions. I see that melsauto is favoring the Rigid 4511 at $600. Since a tablesaw is a lifetime investment and my 1960's Craftsman 10" finally "died" about a year ago, I'd still vote for the Grizz 1023SL and wire the shop for 220v. You won't regret it and it will save you money down the road.
Just FYI my list of tablesaws is as follows:
Craftsman 22124 10" Hybrid voted no. 1 in tests above
Bosch 4000 10" Job Site Portable tablesaw also voted highly in tests
Twin 12" Craftsman 1980's Motorized saws bolted together 84" wide
see: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/membe...span-tablesaw/
Powermatic 68 5hp "Git's R Done!" tablesaw used mostly for ripping
bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 06-11-2009 at 03:53 AM.
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post #14 of 16 Old 06-10-2009, 11:06 PM
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You are a mechanic. Why not go for a little older cabinet saw? If they need a little tlc and tune-up you are more than likely up to it. Delta Unisaw, Powermatic, or several others are excellent choices. Powermatic tends to use standard base motors as opposed to Delta using specialized motor mounts. Search on Craigslist. My buddy bought a 6 year old Unisaw w/52" fence setup, mobil base, and other goodies for $850. That is about a $2300 package. I'm still using an older, modified Cman and a Powermatic 62. They both have Baldor 1.5 hp tefc motors and accurately cut anything I push through them. They are somewhat portable, and that is a requirement for me, but I'm always looking for a cabinet saw at the right price.

St. Louis, MO

Last edited by Clouseau; 06-15-2009 at 09:13 AM.
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post #15 of 16 Old 06-20-2009, 08:40 AM
 
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I would buy Grizzly without hesitation. A 3hp cabinet saw can be purchased reasonably and will last you the rest of your life.

Bobby
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post #16 of 16 Old 06-24-2009, 02:40 PM
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Table Saw

I recently included a table saw review on my blog that may be helpful. Here is the link: http://www.woodworkingtipsandtools.c...le-saw-review/
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