Metal parts fell out of my Craftsman Radial Saw. Still works, but what are the parts? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Question Metal parts fell out of my Craftsman Radial Saw. Still works, but what are the parts?

Two 1.25" long, 1/4" diameter, bright metal dowel pins fell out of the motor area of my 1984 Sears Craftsman 10" Radial Arm Saw Model 113.199250.


The parts fell out one at time. One on one day. The other on the next day.


It had been a while since I had used the radial saw, but over the last 3 days I had been using it steadily to make cross cuts through 2x2 hardwood.


A key factor that might interest you is that these cross cuts were done at a 45 degree TILT angle, not a swing angle.


I had happened to have a 72 tooth blade... and with that many teeth there isn't room for much of a hook angle, so without measuring that actual hook angle, I'd say the carbide teeth were pretty much neutral up and down. Not negative, but if positive, only about a degree or two. The high number of teeth also meant there wasn't much of a gullet between the teeth.



I'll agree that I probably should have been using a 48t negative hook, but since I was crosscutting 45 degree miters and I had already started, I didn't want to change blades (which would require disturbing the carriage height as well as the motor angle in order to access the blade, as the tilt was obviously toward the left, blade down). So I thought I would wait until all the 45 cuts were made, and then when I reset the saw for 90 degree cross cuts, I would change the blade then.


In the meantime, it was slow going. The blade wanted to "rush" through cross cutting the 2x2 once the blade was half way through. I managed this tendency by slowly pulling and backing off through the opened kerf, pulling a bit more and then backing off a bit, in pulses until I made it through.


I had 2 bind ups where I shut the motor off and freed the material, and some burning on the crossgrains. I am confessing all these details and sins of usage so as to help you help me figure out what these two metal dowel pins are for, as I cannot locate them on the Sears Parts diagram, and I don't want to disassemble the motor until I know what exactly I am looking to find missing.


So, when I found the first dowel pin the day before yesterday, I thought it was a shelf pin for a book shelf. My infrequently used radial saw sees more duty as a catchall shelf than as a saw, so I thought that maybe when I cleaned off the saw for use, that perhaps this was one of the random parts that fell out of some recycled furniture piece that I had forgotten about.


But when I found the second dowel pin yesterday, I was actually in the process of changing blades. I had cranked up the arm, pulled the carriage forward, tilted the carriage to 90, removed the blade guard assembly, and was about ready to remove the blade when I heard a second small metal dowel drop onto the radial saw work table.


It matched the dowel found the day before on the floor, but this time, I knew it came out of the saw.



I just have no idea where, and cannot find it in the parts diagram... but the Sears Parts Direct parts diagram is severely hampered, as most of the individual photos of parts have been removed due to lack of availability, and no quantities are provided for individual parts that sound like they maybe could be it, and, the image quality of the parts explosion diagram is severely pixelated, and, the original owners manual does not show a diagram of the 63870 motor assembly, advising the consumer instead to take it in to a Sears Service Center... which havent existed now for at least a decade.


The bright metal (zinc coated or electroplated) dowels are 1 1/4" long, with 1/4" being serrated as if to press into something softer, like a plastic housing. The remaining one inch of length is smooth. There are no observable wear marks on the circumference of the pins. The blunt cut tips of the pins on the smooth surfaced side have marks, but they appear to be the marks from shearing the pins in manufacture (ie, cutting them to length).


All in all, they look like high quality shelf dowel pins, but since I caught one falling out of the saw, they must be part of the saw. Perhaps I stressed the saw out a bit? With the blade off, I turned the saw back on and it runs as if nothing is missing at all. I have it wired to 220, so it hums along. With the power off (and the yellow safety plug removed from the switch) I did notice the shaft was stiffer to turn by hand than I had remembered from years ago, but again, it has been years since I used this saw.


Does anyone have any idea what these dowel pins are? Do they fix the motor in place within the plastic housing? I won't run the saw until I get this mystery solved, but I would rather identify the parts and know where they go before taking a screwdriver to the housing to probe around. The thought here is that if these parts fell out on me, then they fell out on someone else too, and these saws are too numerous for those odds not to have happened.


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post #2 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 04:55 PM
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just guessing - they are travel stops that were pressed into holes of "fixed" pieces. May be linear motion, maybe rotational.
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post #3 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 05:20 PM
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when things like that happened, or have parts left over from a build,
my father would say: "oh, those are spares" - "hang onto them in case
we need them later".

I'm in line with Kiwi.
if you stare at the parts diagrahm until you are blue in the face,
you might get lucky and see where they go.
https://www.searspartsdirect.com/mod...-arm-saw-parts

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Last edited by John Smith_inFL; 05-07-2020 at 06:14 PM.
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post #4 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 06:39 PM
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Call me Rooster Poot, but I would not operate it until I knew exactly where they came from and what they are for.
I would hate to have the whole mechanism with the blade fall out at 3500 RPM. It might never happen, but I would be the guy that sawed himself in half while everyone else stares in awe and thinks " its a one in a million shot.
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post #5 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 07:14 PM
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I've taken a RAS motor apart .....

Here's my thread on replacing the bearings on my 12" RAS motor. There were no such pins anywhere inside the motor or motor housing that I could find if memory serves:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/...rebuild-35737/



The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #6 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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My original post was rather long, and I apologize for that, because usually the length is better at concealing the relevant facts, rather than revealing them.

So to be clear, I have no intention of using the saw until these dowel pins are identified, and their originally installed location and purpose are known.

That is the goal of this thread... to figure out what they are.

The second point that needs clarification refers to the Sears Parts Direct parts explosion diagram, which is too pixelated when exploded large enough to discern detail.

The third issue is that the parts list does not show quantity, which denies an important clue source. Since we know that at least two pins are associated with the saw, quantity information would be helpful to rule out parts that look like possibilities in the diagram, where only one part might be shown as representative of a series of identical parts sharing the same purpose.

Also, my radial saw is a 10" model (113.199250).
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post #7 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 10:02 PM
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its not inside the motor

this saw moves along the arm and the arm also swivels - so you have at least two travel directions that need stops - possibly 4 pins max, which would hit a casting or pressed metal item.

if the saw rotates in its carriage - then another two stops might be in play.

(I am thinking back to my old cheapie Black and Decker radial arm saw (new in the '70s), it was crude but very useful)

Retired engineer-bureaucrat in Oakland, CA. Been working with wood since the 1960's. From the 50's if you count the scrap woodpile on the farm!
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post #8 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 11:23 PM
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Hi Mad

I have a similar Craftsman 10" and I just pulled the head off the arm and looked all over and couldn't find those pins. Mine has the same motor but an older different arm.

They look new, are there any wear marks on the serrated edges where they would be pounded into a casting?

Don't rule out that they may be spares that were dropped into the unit when it was being built. There may be a third one properly installed somewhere and they guy at the factory dropped two extra ones in and didn't bother to fish them back out. (It wouldn't be the first time I've seen this)

Part number 15 on page 42 is described as a "Pin, lever" and has no other hardware associated with it. No nuts or cotter pins or anything to hold it into the lever. Maybe you should check it out. Maybe Sears "included" two spares?

Jeff

PS - if the diagram your looking at gets pixalated then go get the manual from some other site. There are good copies and bad on the internet. I found a copy that blows up to 400% and still has good quality.
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post #9 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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@kiwi_outdoors

Per your suggestion, I am focusing on the rotating turret carrier and the horizontal arm carriage.

I've downloaded a more readable manual from the Vintage Machinery database, which in printed pdf form is infinitely easier to read than the Sear Parts Direct faucet drip dispensary of parts schematics.

I've identified two locations of press fit stop pins, at the lever release on top of the horizontal arm that unlocks swing, (on edit... this is what "that guy" @JayArr also identified in our cross posting, as callout number 15 on page 42, Sears part number 63638) and the lever release in front of the motor carrier that unlocks the tilt. What remains confusing is that the part numbers to these two pins are different, and yet the pins I found are identical. I keep looking for a repeated mentions of either of these two part numbers on any other page, without luck. Also, I am not as yet able to identify any other cylindrically shaped, non threaded pins, even with yet a third or fourth part number, but am still staring.

The diagram depicts these pins way out of scale relative to the surrounding parts that are much larger than the pins in real life, so due to the outsized rendering of the pins, whose length was drawn dam near the diameter of the stator in the motor, the tilt stop pin (if that is what it is) was hiding in plain site.

If these pins fell out, what can be done to refit them for them not to fall out again?

Surely I'm not the only person who has experienced dropped stop pins in a Sears RAS?

Last edited by Mad; 05-07-2020 at 11:32 PM.
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post #10 of 32 Old 05-07-2020, 11:45 PM
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What is the page and part number of the:

Quote:
lever release in front of the motor carrier that unlocks the tilt.
If it's page 38 part 42 then it is big, a lot bigger than what you posted photos of.

I think you need to open your arm and look at that lever pin.

Quote:
If these pins fell out, what can be done to refit them for them not to fall out again?
Loctite!

Last edited by JayArr; 05-07-2020 at 11:53 PM.
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post #11 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Update: None of the suspected parts as depicted in the diagram apply, as determined from taking the saw apart in the areas previously described.


Pin call out numbers 15 and 16 on page 42 are both accounted for in the arm, and are shaped much differently than the mystery pins.


Pin call out number 42 on page 38 is also present and accounted for in action, and as @JayArr guessed, and as the diagram implied via drawing scale, that pin is far larger than the mystery pins.


Current Status: Square Zero.


The motor is about to be stripped searched for questioning. I'll probably never get this saw put back together correctly. The last time I had it this much apart was when I first assembled it in the 1980's.




.

Last edited by Mad; 05-08-2020 at 01:40 AM.
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post #12 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 02:06 AM
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I don't think the pins are part of the saw ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad View Post
Update: None of the suspected parts as depicted in the diagram apply, as determined from taking the saw apart in the areas previously described.


Pin call out numbers 15 and 16 on page 42 are both accounted for in the arm, and are shaped much differently than the mystery pins.


Pin call out number 42 on page 38 is also present and accounted for in action, and as @JayArr guessed, and as the diagram implied via drawing scale, that pin is far larger than the mystery pins.


Current Status: Square Zero.


The motor is about to be stripped searched for questioning. I'll probably never get this saw put back together correctly. The last time I had it this much apart was when I first assembled it in the 1980's.
.



There are some setup tests you can do before taking the motor apart. As I said, I had the motor completely torn apart and there were no such pins. The rolling carriage also is a simple affair and I don't recall any such pins. The carriage yoke has several means of rotating and the pins "may be stops " for 90 degree limits, but again, not likely. The carriage stop is a bolt on the end of the arm closest to the operator, a threaded 5/16" or 3/8" bolt, not a pin. The arm has stops in the column, but they would not fall out on there own accord.
There's only so many places they may have come from IF they are indeed part of the saw, but I own about Craftsman 5 RASs and I don't recall any such pins. DO NOT take the motor apart. If it runs smoothly, starts and stops on demand, then leave it alone. Those pins have no function in the motor. Trust me on this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #13 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 09:46 AM
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My 2nd guess: Are they assembly pins, used in conjunction with a machine bolt or two?

Retired engineer-bureaucrat in Oakland, CA. Been working with wood since the 1960's. From the 50's if you count the scrap woodpile on the farm!
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post #14 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 09:53 AM
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Further research ......

This Sears parts Direct link shows much better and clearer exploded views of the various sub assemblies:
https://www.searspartsdirect.com/mod...-arm-saw-parts


On the motor diagram:
The only pin that even comes close to the one you show is the bevel angle indexing pin, a spring loaded one that seats in the corresponding notches for various angles, 45 degrees, 90 degrees etc. part number 10.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-08-2020 at 09:56 AM.
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post #15 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 11:09 AM
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When was the last time you cut 45 degrees on this saw?

If pins got into the motor carriage on top where the four bearings for the arm are there is a hollow space. they could have been there for years and just didn't rattle out until you started cutting on a 45 degree bevel.

I wouldn't take that motor apart, the tolerance for centering the rotor is really tight. See those holes in the bottom of the casing? They are used to align the parts inside while the case is together and the glue sets. The rotor is held firmly in place by the bearing races machined into the case but the stator has a bit of play until the epoxy sets. You may get lucky and it goes back together but if the old epoxy chips off you'll need to re-create the alignment jig from the factory. If you get it wrong your motor is scrap.

I don't think those pins are from the saw.
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Last edited by JayArr; 05-08-2020 at 11:22 AM.
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post #16 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 12:58 PM
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are these two pins actually "identical"?


Fig 3 #7 and #42 are spring loaded indexing pins - and that was my first guess. the slight bevel on the ends is a tip off.


they have different part numbers - if the length is different the would be different part numbers.


why both fell out at once is mysterious. if the springs broke sometime in history, maybe....


I'd suggest you check & verify those pins are/are not in place before tearing the motor down.
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post #17 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 01:39 PM
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Cutting at a 45 degree bevel .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayArr View Post
When was the last time you cut 45 degrees on this saw?

If pins got into the motor carriage on top where the four bearings for the arm are there is a hollow space. they could have been there for years and just didn't rattle out until you started cutting on a 45 degree bevel.

I wouldn't take that motor apart, the tolerance for centering the rotor is really tight. See those holes in the bottom of the casing? They are used to align the parts inside while the case is together and the glue sets. The rotor is held firmly in place by the bearing races machined into the case but the stator has a bit of play until the epoxy sets. You may get lucky and it goes back together but if the old epoxy chips off you'll need to re-create the alignment jig from the factory. If you get it wrong your motor is scrap.
I don't think those pins are from the saw.

The OP stated:
A key factor that might interest you is that these cross cuts were done at a 45 degree TILT angle, not a swing angle.


Jay is right. If they are the indexing pins for the bevel angle, the saw wouldn't stay at fixed any angle and there would only be one and the spring and handle would be missing. If the saw had a previous owner, who knows what they may have done? There would be no reason for them to be serrated either for an indexing pin. Also they are NOT the carriage cam bolts which carry the V groove rollers. Those are actual bolts with threads and heads.

See if the saw will go through all it's functions, swing the arm until it locks in both 45 degree positions and tilt the carriage and check that for locking/indexing as well. The motor should run and stop on demand with no noises, but try it without the blade at first. The motor brake should slow in down and stop it with seconds. If all is well, go on with your project..... nothing will fly apart and hurt you, but complete your estate plans just in case!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #18 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Bill, thanks for finding a clearer Sears Parts Direct diagram. The model number to the saw you found is prefixed with 315, which indicates a Ryobi manufactured RAS, but interestingly enough, the basic design is so similar to the 113 prefix manufactured by Emerson, one wonders how they could get away with that.

Anyway, the part #10 you identified in that 315 model saw is similar to Part # 42 in Figure 3 that @TomCT2 pointed out, and is the same as the pin I described in Post #9 earlier as being drawn out of scale relative to the motor. The Sears Part Number for that indexing pin is 63645.

As it turns out, it was not drawn out of scale, it really is a big honkin pin, much larger than the mystery pins that dropped out of the saw, as @JayArr predicted, and that big indexing pin was soundly in place on my saw. And keep in mind, as @woodnthings pointed out, I was operating the saw in a 45 degree bevel (that I previously described as "tilt") and the motor carrier remained rock solid in the 45 degree bevel detent. I later disassebled the handle, front cover, motor mounting screws, cover plate, etc... exposing the bevel pin that was still there. Much bigger pin than what dropped out of my saw. So not the culprit.

@TomCT2 also pointed out call out part #7 in Figure 3 of the 113.199250 diagram. That "Pin Assembly, Index" is actually a spherical plastic knob attached to short lever arm that is attached to turned pin with multiple diameters... a decidedly complex and 3 dimensional "assembly" of permanently put together components, none of which resemble the pins that dropped out of the saw.


Based on Bill's, Jay's, and Tom's advise... and especially based on what Jay explained about the epoxy cracking off and needing to fabricate an alignment jig to reassemble the motor, and @woodnthings "DO NOT take apart the motor... Trust me on this."... I will trust you. I'm not going to take apart the motor.


But I do want to solve the mystery of these pins... and haven't even come close yet.

@kiwi_outdoors ... You mentioned a second guess of "assembly pins used in conjunction with a machined bolt." What do you mean?


.

Last edited by Mad; 05-08-2020 at 01:47 PM.
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post #19 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 02:58 PM
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by assembly pins I mean that an interface may be connected by to guide (assembly) pins and two bolts - or something like that - NOT all bolts. When putting a cylinder head on a car there are typically two index pins to get it "dead nuts on" before bringing the mating faces together. .

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post #20 of 32 Old 05-08-2020, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
If the saw had a previous owner, who knows what they may have done?

There is no previous owner. I am the original and sole owner of this saw, which I brought home new in a sealed box, opened, and assembled myself. Quite a bit of assembly was involved, as I recall, but it was several decades ago. I do not recall any such serrated end dowel pins... but, again, it was several decades ago. One component that I did not assemble was the motor, which came preassembled, and the instructions said not to mess with it, as many of you have also advised.





Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
The motor brake should slow in down and stop it with seconds.

Mine does not. In fact, I don't ever recall that it has. I don't think it has any type of brake. One thing I have noticed though, is that the spindle is not free spinning, and is somewhat stiff when rotated by hand, as if the bearings could use lubrication, or as if the lubrication within the bearings has congealed.

Last edited by Mad; 05-08-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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