Makita LS1219L - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 02-07-2020, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Makita LS1219L

I had a heck of a time deciding on the Makita, DeWalt and Bosch 12" sliders. The DeWalt seemed to have a lot of dislikes due to the poor sliding function. The Bosch had reviews of "I love the saw, but I can't trust the cuts". The Makita, as far as I could tell, had no issues IF you could get them to deliver it without shipping damage due to poor factory packing. No one locally in Knoxville carries any of these saws so it HAD to be ordered. I took a chance on the Makita, as it is replacing a Makita LS1019S, and I've had no problems at all with it.

It arrived looking like it had been shipped 4 times across the country. The box was a mess. I warned the retailer about the shipping woes of this saw and they assured me they would reinforce the box. A couple of extra pieces of cardboard (on the TOP) was all they did.

Damage 1. The Lock Lever that you need to depress in order to swing the bed for a miter...broke. HORRIBLE design. Piece of plastic. If it were metal, they would never need to worry about it. I can use the saw without that piece, but I placed one on order for $4.

Damage 2. There was a packet of a couple parts/tools including a small square for calibrating it out of the box. Smashed to bits.

Other than that, the saw seems ok. I calibrated it, made sure everything swung the way it was supposed to, and locked the way it was supposed to. I did everything that could be done that the saw was meant to do. I only made a few sample cuts...straight cuts only. The blade is marginal, but I'm not worried. It was straight and true from the minor cuts I made.

I contacted the reseller to see if they would offer reimbursing for the parts I needed to buy that were broke. Nope. They would only allow me to repack it and send it back. Of course, they would not refund or replace until they had this unit back. That would tie my money up for weeks.

I contacted Makita to tell them how disappointed I was in their packaging and shipping failures. They, too, suggested I send the saw back to the retailer. My thoughts were that this is the saw I want. Sending this one back and taking a crap shoot on another shipment with known poor packing is stupid, IF the saw seemed to function properly.

The question I have here is...could I be missing something? Could the saw be damaged in some way that would not show up in the tests I've run? Should I send it back and take another chance?
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post #2 of 17 Old 02-07-2020, 09:47 PM
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Carefully inspect all of the castings. Make sure there are no partial cracks. As an example, the feet (in case the box was dropped in shipping). Think about how it was packed and what could crack if dropped on any side, and look at those components.

I realize its too late now, but I have had good luck with special orders through HD (in case you have one near you). Pricing is typically competitive, and free shipping to the store. That way you can inspect it when you pick it up and either have them order another, or if needed they will order any replacements for damaged parts.
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post #3 of 17 Old 02-10-2020, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Tom. When you're on as tight a budget as I am, you look for ways to pinch every penny. Home Depot was a bit more expensive, but then I would have had to pay tax on it, which I couldn't afford since it's nearly 10% here. I will inspect as you suggest and go from there. Thanks again.

BTW, I'm originally from Syracuse! Grew up on the West Side. Been south for 25 years, but I still bleed Orange...the REAL Orange (I'm in Knoxville). Was recently there and got our fill of Twin Trees wings and pizza.
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post #4 of 17 Old 02-10-2020, 08:26 PM
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Twin Trees and Twin Trees Too.... the best pizza and wings on the west side! Dont forget the antipasto!
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post #5 of 17 Old 05-17-2020, 04:15 PM
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Ugh... so I did my research and fretted over what 12" SCM to purchase to upgrade from my 6-7 yo Ridgid 12" SCM. The major issue that seemed to pop up with the LS1219L was the detent plate, I was willing to live with that and replace it as necessary. So, yesterday I went to Home Depot picked one up. Brought it home went through the setup for square, perpendicular etc. The only thing that needed a bit of a tweak was square of the fence, no big deal. The other issue I found was the fence itself wasn't perfectly flat, had about .004" of deflection to the middle with no adjustment to fix it. Meh.. not a big deal it is a woodworking tool after all probably not going to be a big issue.

I chucked a 12' wide piece of plywood on it and gave it a whirl. On initial inspection, looks good nice and square with machinists square. Well, not so good after all, put the square on it and backlit it and low and behold the cut is actually an arc. Square touching on the ends and dished in the middle!!! I do recall a couple of forums that suggested this had been an issue with early models but had been rectified. The saw I bought clearly appeared to be off a new production run as the extensions were the new style. In any event, I tried it again thinking maybe I had put some lateral pressure on the handle whilst cutting or maybe pulled it a bit when I plunged the saw. Same result, a dish in the middle. Checked with a decent straight edge in case my square was goofy and still looked like crap. Put the same piece on my old Ridgid SCM and perfectly straight, very slightly out of square as I haven't tuned the saw up in a while but decent cut with the sucky original blade that came with it.

Wondering if anyone else has experienced this issue with the new Makita front slide saws? I actually returned it today and I guess I'll stick with my old Ridgid. I was hoping to gain a bit of space with the Makita and they have possibly the best dust collection I've seen on a SCM, save for maybe a Festool I suppose. Any thoughts on the Bosch Glide? The reviews I've seen on that also suggest that there are issues with accuracy and lateral play in the glide mechanism. Guess I should consider myself lucky that the guy from Craigslist that was coming to buy old one never showed up!
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post #6 of 17 Old 05-17-2020, 04:42 PM
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Coming up on 2 years with the Lowes Kobalt dual compound bevel miter saw, never a problem, tuned real close from the factory, only 1 minor fence adjustment needed. Replaced a Hitachi 12"Single bevel saw because I wanted the dual bevel.
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Alexis de Tocqueville was a very smart man.
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post #7 of 17 Old 05-17-2020, 08:27 PM
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If you like the Makita forward rail action, and want 12" blade capacity, and happen to already have, or plan to get any type of Makita 18V/36V battery operated tool, whether outdoor power equipment or general tools... then I would strongly suggest skipping the LS1219L(X) and instead taking a good long hard look at the Makita XSL08Z(PT).


IMHO, the cast saw table extensions are superior on the newer XSL08 over the bent wire extensions of the LS1219, and the convenience of cordless is liberating in a portable deployment.














For corded 12" dual bevel compound sliding miter saws, it is hard to beat the Bosch Glide Saw.


.
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post #8 of 17 Old 05-18-2020, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad View Post
If you like the Makita forward rail action, and want 12" blade capacity, and happen to already have, or plan to get any type of Makita 18V/36V battery operated tool, whether outdoor power equipment or general tools... then I would strongly suggest skipping the LS1219L(X) and instead taking a good long hard look at the Makita XSL08Z(PT).


IMHO, the cast saw table extensions are superior on the newer XSL08 over the bent wire extensions of the LS1219, and the convenience of cordless is liberating in a portable deployment.














For corded 12" dual bevel compound sliding miter saws, it is hard to beat the Bosch Glide Saw.


.
The version of the LS1219L I purchased did have the cast extensions, I assume it is a recent upgrade from previous release. Appears to be a carbon copy of the cordless. I can’t get past this arc in the cut. Not sure if it was a one off defect or something that will show up again if I tried another one. For $700 CDN I don’t think I’m willing to risk getting stuck with something I’m not going to be happy with.

May take a drive to the supplier that has the Bosch in stock and have a look. Have seen more than a couple reviews suggesting there is issues with accuracy on those as well. Maybe I should abandon this project and stick to my cabinet saw and Ridgid SCM.. The allure of quick cross cuts on the SCM is high but my Ridgid has such ****ty dust collection and takes up soooo much space with the rear rails.
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post #9 of 17 Old 05-18-2020, 12:33 AM
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Oh goodness. I can't remember if it was at 2015 or 2017 AWFS. I played with the Bosch. I asked that the rep if I could play with the saw and if he would unplug it. I really liked the saw better than my DeWalt 708 EXCEPT that the arm seemed wiggly side to side. It seemed that it didn't take much pressure to move the saw side to side. It may have been that it wasn't set up correctly but I would find that odd considering the level of importance at the AWFS show.

This is a 'for what it is worth' comment. I was in Home Depot looking at the DeWalt new articulated arm SCMS. There is a sales guy in the tool crib at that HD who has been there since forever. I'm 77 and this guy is probably 10 years older. He told me that my 708 is a better design and that the pros are always asking if there is any 'Old 708 Stock' left. The instore sales people at HD don't get commissions. I assume that he was being honest.

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post #10 of 17 Old 05-18-2020, 11:19 AM
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@BNB187 Sorry about that... I was responding to the original poster of a thread you apparently bumped from the past (regarding cast table extensions), and didn't pay enough attention to the details in your post, which I thought was in response to the OP, not a new case.

@NoThankyou and @BNB187 regarding the Bosch 12" Glide Saw.


Yes, an inattentive human arm can impose a lateral lean to the saw's glide arm at the farthest reach of travel, by pulling to the left or right, or by not being cognizant of the human arm's lateral arc of motion that is a natural result of a horizontal grip and an outward extending elbow... not tucking one's arm in when operating the saw.


Some characterize this as a flaw of the saw. I find it to be a feature of the saw, and any flaw in not discovering this feature, to be either used or avoided, rests with the operator.


Very little in home construction or remodeling is perfectly square, level, plumb, beveled or mitered. When cutting angles to match existing work in a remodel, or the quick, fast, and consequently sloppy work of other trades in new construction, I often find that I need to cheat angles a little in order to obtain tight or gapless fit ups in corners. So 45 degrees becomes 45+ or 45-, to compensate for bowed walls, bulged rock, or botched buildings.


I think most people who saw wood do this, even with straight cross cuts. Inside the line, outside the line, on the line, half on, half off the line... these are decisions we sometimes make "on the fly" depending on what we previously found was too long or too shy. Adding the element of angle deviation is like having another tool in the box.


So how much deviation can be manually (and quite cognizantly) "forced" on the Bosch Glide Arm's excursion over the full length of it's cross cut travel capacity? Keep in mind, I own this saw, and have cut a lot of wood with it. I didn't just play with it for a few minutes at a store, or read reviews about it. The opinions and observations I'm sharing here are my own, developed with several years of experience with this saw. The photos, and the ideas for the photos, are mine as well.


The lock knob area at the end of the trough represents a distance greater than the glide arm can travel, and thus any cumulative deviation measured there would represent the maximum possible deviation from the origination of travel. The perfect vector is indicated by the first photo below, where the laser line is dead center in the trough, equidistant between the left (purple) and right (green) arrows:



Perfectly straight.





Now, if I shove the glide arm toward the left while I'm gliding the saw head toward me, I can force this much deviation left:

Consciously forced left bias.




Likewise, if I shove the glide arm toward the right while I'm gliding the saw head toward me, I can force this much deviation right:

Consciously forced right bias.




With mere conscious awareness of the influence that my arm can impose on the saw's arm, the saw can cut PRECISELY where I want it to... left, right, or center.

Consciously RELAXED, with a mindful, neutral human arm operation, purposely aiming to have the laser land on the line separating the different colored arrows.


The glide arm suspends the weight of the saw, and guides the arm straight. Humans who operate the saw may not be aware of the influence of their own arm motion.


Try this experiment. Reach your hand out above your head, palm facing forward, hand high, as if you were palming a basket ball in the middle of a slam dunk, or as if reaching for the top ledge of a cliff you are trying to climb up. Physically do this reaching now... don't just imagine it in your mind... otherwise the point will be lost.


Now, clench your fingers as if grasping a hold of the horizontally oriented handle of a miter saw, and go ahead and pull your arm down. Reach up and pull down several times. How vertical is your hand traveling? Line your body up to a vertical line on the wall, such as a door frame, and do the exercise again. If you are right handed, and operate miter saws with your right hand, be sure and reach up with your right hand. Do you not notice how as you pull your hand down from up above you, that it not only goes down, but also goes toward the right?


Furthermore, the further away you elbow is from your body, the more horizontal drift can be observed in the hand from it's highest reach, toward its downward travel termination at waist level. This is critical to be aware of.


Another exercise: Now hold an imaginary gun in you hand. Raise your hand high, as if holding a starting pistol. Now, keeping the gun pointed toward the front at all times, lower your hand to waist level. It does not matter whether you keep your arm straight, or bend your elbow. The only thing that matters as you lower your arm is keeping the gun pointed toward the front.


Observe your wrist as you lower your arm. Holding the gun forces the wrist into a VERTICAL grip, as opposed to the more wrist friendly, ladder climbing like HORIZONTAL grip, as the previous exercise modeled. With the gun in vertical grip, notice how, as you lower the pistol from above your head in the starting position, the arm and wrist tend to travel in much straighter vertical line as you keep the gun pointed toward the front.



Another visualization is pulling the chain on a shop light, or climbing a rope. The arm tends to move up and down more perpendicularly with the wrist oriented vertically. Note than the Festool KAPEX miter saw, vaunted for it's accuracy, also has a vertically oriented grip. This jail house bar grip is not favored by many, as it is not as comfortable to reach up for and pull down as is a horizontal grip. like a ladder rung.



And therein lies the problem... some saw operators might carry over comfort with their grip orientation of choice to comfort with how they bring their arm down in saw operation. The human arm movement that enables the highest precision is not natural. It is uncomfortable. It is not mindless. It is quite mindful. And with a horizontally oriented grip and a wide elbow that bio-mechanically forces the right hand to drift sideways as it lowers anyway, even more thought must be applied to the downward motion when operating a miter saw with a floating glide arm.
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post #11 of 17 Old 05-18-2020, 01:54 PM
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@Mad, very interesting points you bring up regarding the human factor of all this. Never really considered the orientation of the grip as being a possible problem when using the tool. Always wondered why the Kapex had the vertical grip the only other saw I can recall this on was the old Hitachis. I totally agree that there is very little in life that is square and plumb in terms of home construction. These days I do more in the way of furniture and cabinetwork, mostly hobby stuff really. Admittedly, I'm very much a perfectionist and really didn't get into woodworking too much until the last few years. So much room for frustration in the movement of wood after cutting and planing etc. I guess maybe I ask too much of some of my tools and should learn to work with them instead of finding flaws.

I'm really fighting with myself on whether I should give the Bosch a go or not. They had one on display at the local hardware store that I played around with a bit and seemed pretty solid, less movement in the glide arm than I would have expected. Dust collection seems to be ok on the videos I've watched on youtube, nothing like the Kapex, and the Makita is quite impressive in this regard as well. A tool store a bit further out from me has the GCM12SD on sale with a free wheeled cart for $669CDN til the end of the month. Regular price on these 2 items would normally be over $1100CDN so it does seem like the right time if I want to try it. The other thing that I like about the Bosch setup is that there is no rail that impairs your sightline when cutting. Albeit a minor detail still kind of nice.
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post #12 of 17 Old 05-18-2020, 04:11 PM
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@Mad A tool store a bit further out from me has the GCM12SD on sale with a free wheeled cart for $669CDN til the end of the month. Regular price on these 2 items would normally be over $1100CDN so it does seem like the right time if I want to try it. The other thing that I like about the Bosch setup is that there is no rail that impairs your sightline when cutting. Albeit a minor detail still kind of nice.
Is the "free wheeled stand" the Bosch T4B Gravity Rise stand? If yes, then let me provide you with some pricing perspective.

Around 3 or 4 years ago Home Depot and Lowes both discontinued devoting display shelf space to the Bosch 12" Glide Arm saw.

Home Depot's reasons were to make room for the new crop of battery operated dual bevel compound sliding miter saws, introducing the DeWalt Flex Volt, as well as Milwaukee's 12.0HD battery series saws. This all took place in 2016 and 2017. I'm not sure why Lowes discontinued displaying the Bosch, but Lowes has been going through a sea of changes in their tool department, ever since Stanley Black and Decker purchased the Craftsman line from Sears Holdings for a billion bucks, and began expanding that line into Lowes, right along side of the DeWalt and Porter Cable brands that Stanley Black & Decker also owns.

When the 12" Bosch glide saw was first on display at any given Home Depot in the USA, which was a decade ago, it started out at $799 USD for the saw alone, then quickly drifted down to $749, then $699, and finally settled at $649, and remained $649 for many years. When Home Depot discontinued the saw, they blew them out at some stores for as low as $349 USD. The saws vanished in less than a day. I purchased one immediately on sight, and once I got it home, I tried to go back and get another for a friend who helped me unload it and wanted one too, but poof! The saws on sale were gone in 60 seconds. This was in 2016, so I've had my 12" glide for 4 years. My neighbor bought his at Rockler back in 2008 or 2009, and paid over $959 USD for the saw alone.

Home Depot was also blowing out the Bosch T4B Gravity Rise wheeled stand for the miter saw, which Home Depot normally sold for $299. Unfortunately, in all the Home Depots in my area, the price for the stand was not discounted, remaining at $299 for months. I presented screen shots of other Home Depots (outside of my state) of the T4B Gravity Rise stand at a close out price of $149 USD, but the store managers would not relent. Needing the stand, I finally relented and paid $299 for it. And of course, seemingly a week past the last day to return the stand receipt for a price adjustment, the local Home Depots finally discounted the stand to $149.

So doing the math at the rock bottom blow out discontinued pricing for both the stand at $149 (normally $299) and the saw at $349 (normally $649), the difference is $498 for the ensemble, versus $948 for the ensemble. Put in Canadian dollars at today's exchange rate, the difference is $696 CAD versus $1,325 CAD. So, the lowest discounted price the saw + gravity rise stand has been available in the USA for is $696 CAD, and you are finding that ensemble for $669 CAD. That, without a doubt, is a good buy.
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post #13 of 17 Old 05-19-2020, 06:44 PM
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Unbelievably, I decided to give the Makita one more kick at the cat. Have read in some other forums that the issue with slider parallelism to blade sometimes is a one saw to the next problem. So, off I went to the Home Depot, a different store than the last, and got another one. Brought it home put the best blade I own on it. Checked the blade to fence square, out just a hair fixed that. Gave it a test cut and same issue with the arc in the cut, this time I only used about 8-inch piece and still .007" dish on one side and crown on the cut off piece. Took the same piece over to my old Ridgid SCM and cut it there, comes out nice and straight no dish or crown. I checked this piece for square with 12" machinist square, dead on. Put that piece back on the Makita and clamped it down with blade all the way out as to where the kerf was just clearing the piece of wood. As I slide the saw back toward the fence there is a VERY noticeable change in the distance between the blade and material, close to 1/32". Hmm.. head scratcher..

At this point I thought well let's try something different loosened the adjustment screws for the detent plate and squared the blade to the piece when sliding. Had a pretty good idea what was going to happen here, and as expected made a cut and piece was way out of square. So leaves me thinking that the only issue that can cause this is slider rails to blade parallelism is out. There is no mention of an adjustment for this issue, I've seen some out there suggest that it can be tweaked but not a manufacturer recommended procedure.

So, I'm done with this saw back to Home Depot it goes! And off to KMS to pickup the Bosch on sale! Thanks, @Mad for your insight and thoughts on this matter. I can see this Makita being fine for doing trim and construction stuff, but not really great for doing frames and furniture work.
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post #14 of 17 Old 05-25-2020, 07:01 PM
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@BNB187 Get back in here and report how you find coping with the "flexibility" of the Bosch glide arm saw, as influenced by the human arm.


I measure in 16ths. Finer wood workers measure in 32nds. You have been measuring in single digit thousandths. As such, I am curious to know your findings.
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-03-2020, 09:31 PM
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So I’ve had the Bosch for a couple weeks now.. pretty happy with it, had to make a couple of adjustments to the fence and detents but nothing major. Cut quality far superior to the Makita.

I’ve made a zero clearance insert for it and so far it shows no signs of being anything other than dead straight. So I guess for me the flex in the glide hasn’t been an issue at this point. Big drawback is the dust collection, the Makita was far better, but I can live with that.

I wasn’t so concerned about the way the Makita was out of the box as to what would happen if those single digit thou measurements turned into double digit after some use and how this would impact miter cuts. I’ve made a few miter framed table tops. Concern was that I’d cutting a 9” wide board making all cuts on the same side of the saw what happens to those joints? Would be looking at a cup or crown getting close to 1/32. Not great for joints that are already inherently weak, don’t get me wrong they would be backed up with spline, biscuit, or dowel.

So for me I just wasn’t willing to take the chance on the ‘what if’ factor with the Makita. The table saw is a bit of a pain when mitering 6 or 7 foot pieces, so I’m really hoping this Bosch will do the trick!
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post #16 of 17 Old 06-09-2020, 03:29 AM
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@BNB187


Thank you for your follow up report. I'm glad the Bosch Glide saw is working out well for you. It works out fine for me too, and can be as precise as I want it to be, with deliberate action.


One word of caution about the Made in China blade that ships with the Bosch. Mine was bent brand new out of the box. I would never have noticed it, but my blade sharpener, who has been sharpening saw blades for over 45 years, noticed it right away, and then showed me with his dial indicators. He then put the blade on his $4,000 blade anvil, gave it a few whacks with his $300 blade hammer, retensioned the blade, and then showed me how much straighter it was with his dial indicators.


He wouldn't charge me... so I bought a new blade from him instead, which he didn't argue with.



Anyway, if precision and tight kerfs are important to you, have that blade that Made in China blade that Bosch ships with North American market saws checked for flatness.



The irony is, Bosch owns Freud, which owns Diablo. Bosch owns most of the high dollar blade making operations in Italy. The 72 tooth blade that Bosch ships with the glide saw to the European and Oceania markets has a blue coating and comes from Italy, or at least once did. The 60 tooth blade we get is uncoated, and is bent for no extra charge.


I'm curious to see what your ZCI looks like. Got pics?
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-12-2020, 07:45 PM
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@BNB187




I'm curious to see what your ZCI looks like. Got pics?
Here ya go.. pretty simple one just made it from some 3/4 ply and then planed to the appropriate thickness.. didn't go overboard on leveling it with the table seems to work fine...
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