hello and I need advise. - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 08-13-2019, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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hello and I need advise.

Thank you in advance..



I just received a craftsman model 113.29950 table saw.. this thing is beautiful but... the motor seems to be toast.. just hums.. someone has replaced the plug.. and I've read on this site that it may be a 220v
I think its an amazing saw.. and I believe it's worth sinking some cash into.. but where would I find info on the saw and possibly a new motor if this one is toast.. I'm more concerned about the motor being toast and finding a replacement than anything else.
Man.. they just don't make things like they used too! I've spent the evening cleaning out all the old goo and solid, compressed saw dust from all the moving bits, loosened every knob up, oiled to a comfortable level for ease of use.
Someone loved this machine.. it's complete and it looks as though it was maintained very well, up until its recent life... or lifelessness. I'd like to save it.
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post #2 of 19 Old 08-13-2019, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Hayward View Post
Thank you in advance..



I just received a craftsman model 113.29950 table saw.. this thing is beautiful but... the motor seems to be toast.. just hums.. someone has replaced the plug.. and I've read on this site that it may be a 220v
I think its an amazing saw.. and I believe it's worth sinking some cash into.. but where would I find info on the saw and possibly a new motor if this one is toast.. I'm more concerned about the motor being toast and finding a replacement than anything else.
Man.. they just don't make things like they used too! I've spent the evening cleaning out all the old goo and solid, compressed saw dust from all the moving bits, loosened every knob up, oiled to a comfortable level for ease of use.
Someone loved this machine.. it's complete and it looks as though it was maintained very well, up until its recent life... or lifelessness. I'd like to save it.
It's possible the motor is alright and just needs correct wiring. Is there a schematic on the motor that shows the wiring? Maybe someone tried to wire to for 110v which would be wrong.

If it has the motor on it I think it does the motor probably isn't replaceable. Then if you try to take it to a motor repair shop they won't want to work on it because the body is suppose to be glued together. You may have to open up the case on it before taking it to a motor shop.
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post #3 of 19 Old 08-13-2019, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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it's definitely wired for 110.
no schematic from what I see. Motor say's 120/240 volts 13/6.5 amps 1 phase type 134-1
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post #4 of 19 Old 08-13-2019, 07:28 PM
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Sometime just blowing out the sawdust will get a motor running again.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

FrankC
http://sawdustmaking.com
http://woodworkerglossary.com
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post #5 of 19 Old 08-13-2019, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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Frank C.
yes, tried it.. also trying to hand spin the rotor has done nothing, just the hum. I might pull it out of the saw one night this week and check the brushes, clean the bearings up and lube if possible.
I'll take any suggestions at this point.. and I'll try whatever to get it up and running again.
Also, all lubricant on this saw has turned to shellac at this point.. I've been working on it and its possible that a deeper cleaning is needed.

Last edited by Marc Hayward; 08-13-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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post #6 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 11:18 AM
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I would start with the capacitor. They can be ohmed, but you'll have to look up the specifics for that capacitor. Or if you know an AC technician they can test it. Swelling or oil leakage also indicates a bad capacitor, in which case you just replace it.


If the capacitor is good, then the motor is probably shot, in which case you have a decision to make. I've take a couple old motors to a local repair shop and they told me it isn't worth the inspection fee just buy a new one.


I will say there are so many of those old C'man tablesaws depending on the model truthfully some of them are not very good (and that's an understatement). Its really all about the fence. If your fence has a single handle you turn to lock, they are quite bad. The vintage machinery website usually has original manuals you can download.


Aside from the fence, a good way to tell if you've got a decent machine is look at the trunnions. Stamped metal= bad, cast iron = good. Mounted directly to table = good, mounted to frame = bad.
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post #7 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 07:16 PM
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You should check the wiring connections inside the motor box to be certain that It's wired for the correct voltage. In many cases, the wiring diagram is on the inside of the motor electrical box cover. Don't try to run it unless you are certain that it's wired for the voltage that you intend to operate it at.

I would be willing to bet that your problem is either the capacitor or the centrifugal start switch. These are usually inside the non shaft end of the motor or the end where the power wires enter the motor. Inside, on the motor shaft are two spring loaded weights that swing out as the motor rotates. When they move, they press on the switch, opening the circuit to the capacitor and the start winding in the motor as the motor accelerates up to speed. If the capacitor is bad or the switch contacts never closed as the motor slowed down the last time it was run, the motor will only have power on the run winding when you try to start it and it will only hum. It needs both the start and run windings to be energized when power is applied and this switch disconnects the start winding as the motor comes up to speed, because the starting winding will over heat if not turned off. Cleaning the flyweights and the collar that slides on the shaft so they move correctly, or cleaning the contacts of the starting switch is an almost certain fix, but capacitors are cheap, so I would change it too. Buy one with the same ratings that the label on it says. There will be a number followed by MFD and a working voltage (must be AC, like 370 volts AC) and the physical size of the capacitor must be the same or it likely won't fit inside the motor electrical box.

To remove the end cover of the motor there are 4 long bolts with nuts holding both ends of the motor together and against the center winding part of the motor. Remove these 4 bolts. Then tap the edge of the motor end cover with a large screwdriver and small hammer around the edge where it joins the center section of the motor. It would be good to scratch a line across the joint, so you can remember the orientation of the motor end cover when you are re-assembling the motor. The switch will most likely be mounted to the inside of the motor end cover, so be careful with the wires as you remove it. Clean the switch contacts. A small piece of emery cloth or a small file between the contacts and slid back and forth will work. You want them to be shiny and not heavily pitted, but they must spring tightly together when you finish. Then clean and lightly lubricate the fly weight pivots and the sleeve area on the motor shaft. A tiny bit of lubricant here helps too. The sleeve needs to slide freely on the motor shaft, but go easy on the lubrication. You don't want it flying off as the motor spins.

When satisfied that the switch and fly weights are OK, replace the capacitor and finish re-assembling the motor, making certain that no wires interfere with the motor rotation. Spin the motor by hand after assembly to be certain that it spins free. Then try it out with power. I think you will be very pleased with the result. If you fail, let the motor rewinding shop look at it. They might just see an easy fix for it.

Local motor rewinding services will have the capacitor and even switch parts. Capacitors can also be had from Grainger and other Industrial Supply companies.

I worked 7 years as the only US based (EE) factory electrical rep for a European Printing Press Manufacturer. My territory was all 50 States and the Caribbean. I worked on a lot of motors during that time.

Charley

Last edited by CharleyL; 08-14-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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post #8 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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FrankC all cast iron and mounted to the table at least 250 pound saw
So, I took the motor out.. internally it was wired for 220 with a 110 3 poll plug on the cord.. rewired it for the 110 config and boom.. she's cutting wood! or at least I thought... once it warmed up.. it died.. let it cool for a few minutes and run it.. short time later.. died.. the Motor ran good until it got hot.
I'll have to research more to get to the next level with this.

Last edited by Marc Hayward; 08-14-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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post #9 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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CharleyL this just might be my next step.
The wiring was configured incorrectly for sure.
I'll need to clean the bench off to go deeper into the motor.
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post #10 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 07:44 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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This is NOT a typical motor....

https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/...rebuild-35737/
If the motor is a direct drive like a RAS, it is not held together by plates on the ends with through bolts. See my repair thread above. It is glued together in two halves longitudinally like Steve said above.


https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/...9950-a-131017/




That motor is as I described it, glued together like a RAS motor I repaired. Not a bad motor, just that motor shops won't open them up for some reason, so I gave it a try and it was successful.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-14-2019 at 09:46 PM.
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post #11 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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woodnthings
you are correct Sir.
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post #12 of 19 Old 08-14-2019, 09:55 PM
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240v

If it is overheating on 120v could you wire back for 240 and run it at higher voltage thus lower amps. This may drop the running temp and keep any protection from over heating.
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post #13 of 19 Old 08-15-2019, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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samandothers sounds interesting enough.
I'll eventually explore that option as well.
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post #14 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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so I found a potential problem/ solution to my issue.

The center spade connector on the (klixon?) relay is loose.. does anyone know of a replacement? 2cr4-277 v6a
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post #15 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 10:03 AM
where's my table saw?
 
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It is this .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Hayward View Post
so I found a potential problem/ solution to my issue.

The center spade connector on the (klixon?) relay is loose.. does anyone know of a replacement? 2cr4-277 v6a

This is a photo of the wiring box of my motor:




I don't know what that device is, a relay or a capacitor, but if you search both your number and the one on this you should be able to find out what it is and does. 2CR4-270 B7A or 2CR4-277 V6A.


I found this:
https://www.motor-pump-ventilation.c...ger-point-15-a


https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source=...hoCEHMQAvD_BwE


Finally these images:
https://www.google.com/search?client...8XT87GqTSKxvM:
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-21-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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post #16 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 12:10 PM
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It's a potential relay and could very well be the problem, the reason it wouldn't start in the beginning was it was wired wrong, the reason it got hot after rewiring is the relay is bad and not picking up to de-energize the start winding


Looks like a pretty cheap replacement even if you let the magic smoke out of the motor, at least not a big loss
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post #17 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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woodnthings,Catpower thank you both so much... I went a little too deep lol... the result was magic smoke... once I opened the case up as in your post Woodnthings.. I found that it's been heated up a few times too many.. so I decided to open up the relay and the contacts were crispy.. cleaned them all up.. put it all back together.. and viola! smoke and death..
In the end.. it's probably best to just buy a newer saw.
I took off the table extensions and a few other pieces including the mounted shop light. the rest will go to the junk yard today.
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post #18 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 01:19 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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Ok, I think the same motor was used on the 12" radial arm saw ...?

It's a dual voltage motor like on the direct drive saws. My 12" direct drive saw has a 220 volt only motor, so I don't know if RAS motors will swap out...?
Here some on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...sman+ras+motor

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/cr...66_289896.html


I'll try and snap a photo of mine.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-21-2019 at 01:25 PM.
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post #19 of 19 Old 08-21-2019, 06:18 PM
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It could possibly still be fixed, one time about 40 years ago I went to an auction, I was a little late but the auctioneer was saying I can't even get a $50 bid on a 10 inch table saw, I piped up I will buy it after I get registered, so I did


After I finally got to look at it, it was a Wallace table saw, they were gear drive, but all the gear box and innards were missing. I got some 3/4 plate and with a bunch of work turned it into a very good saw that was belt driven, that mother was a heavy duty machine bet it weighed 800 lbs


When I bought it I was pretty hard up, and my ex wife about blew a gasket, oh well LOL


What really hurt was I was going to look for hardware, since I blew my allowance on a broken saw I couldn't buy any hardware, and it was selling for pennies on the dollar

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