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post #1 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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got a couple of questions..

Well I got kind of carried away at HD the other night and came home with a Dewalt 7491RS for $475. Porter Cable 6gal compressor, Husky brad and staple nailer, Diablo blades for the table saw, Kreg pocket hole jig, Router bits for my Ryobi router, Orbital sander, drill bits, sand paper, bar clamps, five 1-gal pails of different color stain they clearanced to $9-gal. I don't think I made the right choice with Ryobi round over bits and Menards tool shop straight bits, but thats all I could afford. I really wanted the Dewalt 7480 or the Bosch but my girlfriend talked me into spending the money on the bigger Dewalt for the larger rip and rolling stand. I really hope I made the correct choice on purchasing this table saw and other items. I did get myself in kind of a predicament. HD was offering $100 off, 6 months same as cash with a purchase of $1k or more. Only having one credit card in my life I figured why not? They approved me for less than the $1k so my loving girlfriend applies and gets approved for more than $1k and tells me we will split the stuff. I didn't want to do this because last night when I told her she needed to wait for me to be home to run the table saw (she's used one, one time) she says well its my table saw and laughed. Her and I got into a huge argument a few weeks ago when we were doing trim work she had her hand maybe 3'' from the miter saw blade. I told her to keep it farther away and I'll be danged if she didn't listen. A few weeks later I am framing a 16x20 shed and ask her to cut some studs and she does it again. She said she cant grip the board and her hands are completely fine where they were. I told her use a bar clamp and clamp the board then. She says shes not going through all that. I told her last night that I will be giving her the money for the table saw ASAP and she says what, your not going to let me use it now? I want to include her in the shop, but I also want her to be safe. I took advance carpentry classes in high school 2004-2005 and somewhat familiar with table saws, where she has never run one. Any suggestions? I purchased a larger push stick that looked like a upright handle and thought about getting the micro jig, but I dont want to remove the blade guard due to her.



So last night I began building my workbench from 2x4 and plywood and noticed with my old, blue Ryobi saw the entire upper half would wiggle from left to right. It doesn't bevel and the trigger stuck twice on me and needed pushed in to stop. Part of me says to find stuff to tighten up and part of me says get rid of it, but I don't know what to buy to replace it? My limit would be about $200. I know thats not a lot but funds are low.
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Would it be more economical to just use my table saw for miter and straight cuts than buy another miter saw?
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 05:45 PM
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When you say late,are you talking about after closing time??? HaHaHa,dang I would have love to been there just to help you carry all that.Nothing better than opening box pulling out new tool,that smell. Myself I would use your TS and save those Benjamins for yourself and fantastic GF one of those Dewalt sliding miter saws.You will have some money tied up in it but I wish that would have been route I took several yrs ago.I would also spring for outfeed/infeed table same height as the miter saw so that your GF will be able work safer. You can make a sled for your TS to cut 45*,do a search on Youtube and you will find lots of ideals about making miter sled for the TS
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 07:44 PM
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What I think I read is that your girlfriend is not as safety-focused as you would like, and she is also willful about continuing unsafe practices.

What I might suggest is for you to sign up to share a woodworking safety class together. Hopefully there is one in your area that would be suitable. Make sure it is a positive, shared experience, one where you can learn something too.
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 09:08 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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Get her a Saw Stop... ASAP!

She is an accident waiting to happen. Show her the photos from "Lets see some damage" here:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f7/l...age-34/index3/

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Would it be more economical to just use my table saw for miter and straight cuts than buy another miter saw?

Of course it would be more economical. That is a simple should I spend the money or not spend the money question.


Clearly what you believe is safe and what she believes is safe is different. I am reasonably sure when using the miter saw my thumb is occasionally closer than 3".


All you can do is help her understand that shop tools can be dangerous things.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-14-2020, 07:01 AM
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Well, if youre asking for advice on how to get the lady friend to listen to your safety concerns, show her what happens when those concerns arent followed. The Damage thread is a good place to start, heres a few other links (no gore):

Those are just examples of what happens when something goes wrong under controlled conditions. You, and hopefully she, will notice that the slightest malfunction causes the entire tool to launch either itself or the workpiece at considerable speed and send things in unpredictable directions. No matter how fast you are, you cant move your hand faster than the blade in a situation like that.

If that doesnt lead to some respect for tools, theres plenty of stuff on the, erm, 'after effects' of people who fail to respect the fact that the only thing standing between a tools user and traumatic amputation is paying attention to basic safety precautions, like keeping your hands away from the spinny bits and securing the workpiece. Degloving, traumatic amputation of digits, punctured eyes from ricocheting parts kicked off saw blades. Ever see what it looks like when someone ignores the label on a metal lathe that says "Tie up loose clothing, do not touch parts in motion"? Its not pleasant to look at.

Respect the damn tools, thats a requirement for anybody using them. A basic safety course needs to be on the table before the next time they get plugged in, otherwise blatant disregard for safety WILL cause an accident

I need cheaper hobby
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-14-2020, 04:48 PM
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I "liked" @woodnthings post when I saw the "Get her a Saw Stop... ASAP!" title on the post, but then "unliked" it after I clicked on that gruesome thread.

I know too many old guy woodworkers with too many scars and missing body parts. Many of us without serious injuries are more lucky than skilled. Accidents are over before you know that they happened, and power tools can inflict life-changing injuries.

Sloppy habits and woodworking are not a good combination. I hope your girlfriend learns to slow down, pay attention, respect the power of the tools and the terrible harm they can do, and learn from the experiences of others.
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-14-2020, 05:13 PM
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There's more to it than "luck" ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
I "liked" @woodnthings post when I saw the "Get her a Saw Stop... ASAP!" title on the post, but then "unliked" it after I clicked on that gruesome thread.

I know too many old guy woodworkers with too many scars and missing body parts. Many of us without serious injuries are more lucky than skilled. Accidents are over before you know that they happened, and power tools can inflict life-changing injuries.

Sloppy habits and woodworking are not a good combination. I hope your girlfriend learns to slow down, pay attention, respect the power of the tools and the terrible harm they can do, and learn from the experiences of others.

Like most things in life, there's a certain amount of physics involved in everything we do.... driving, walking, sitting etc. Operating a machine with high speed rotating cutters is another example. Rotating forces, friction, feed pressure, parallelism, etc. are all involved when a rotating saw blade enters and starts cutting a piece of wood on the table saw. My high school physics class did not prepare me for this, but was valuable none the less. A college class on forces and strength of materials added a better understanding.

Real world application was the best learning experience for some of the lessons on the table saw for me.... no mentor, no You Tube, just me and the spinning 10" blade and a few kickbacks over the early years. I would chalk my success up to common sense rather than luck. Now, after 50+ years of experience, I would be comfortable making most types of cuts I would ever need, and if I wasn't comfortable, I'd figure out a different way to do it.


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-16-2020, 09:01 PM
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I would love a GF who doesn't use a stick nor a kick back guard. I run a table saw without the kick back guard, without anything on top. Those things limit my ability to control the wood during cut, and know what precision I get during the cut. I need exacting straight lines. I do not use a stick to drive wood into the table saw, doesn't make sense to me. I use both of my hands to have a firm grip on every piece of wood running through the table saw in front of and behind the blade. A "stick" will not give me exacting control over a piece of wood running through a table saw. Stop watching the local tv shows on wood working, just a guess or at least a recommendation for those who do. Stop watching those shows who are overly distant from liability. Do it your way. I use two strong hands and arms to control the wood movement through the table saw, NOT SOME DISTANT STICK WITH ONE POINT OF CONTACT, and I don't go stupid. I have 2 hands constant on the wood throughout the cut, in front of the blade and behind the blade, AND MY FINGERS ARE WITHIN A HALF INCH OF THE BLADE SOMETIMES. I have better control over my 2 hands controlling the cut than some DIPSTICK! Look, no one wants to cut off their finger. Just be mindful. If you don't belong on a table saw, then you don't. It sounds like to me, your GF knows what's up. She is aware of her surroundings. Leave her be. I am outside the realm of woodworkers who are scared of tools. Know yourself, and control your tools and limbs. It's easy stuff.
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-16-2020, 09:18 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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I understand your reasoning .......

If you know what you are doing and choose not to use a "stick or shoe" to push the workpiece past the blade when ripping, I would agree the there are times when I do the same thing. However, when ripping narrow strips between the blade and fence I will use a push shoe that is more narrow then the workpiece to push it past the blade.

I also don't like "anti-kickback pawls" because they do get it the way and don't allow you to pull the workpiece back after it's started.

My rules are:
Keep the workpiece registered all along the fence for the entire length of the cut. Period. How you do it is up to you.

Keep your hands and fingers out of the direct line of the cut, the blade path. Period. There is no exception to this rule unless the workpiece is quite long OR large like a sheet of plywood. I use the red painted area of the throat plate as the danger zone where my fingers do not go..... usually.

As to the girl friend's position, who knows if she knows what she is doing OR is just unteachable or just plain stubborn ... ? I wouldn't want to be in the OP's position on this one.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-16-2020, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetwoodDesign View Post
I would love a GF who doesn't use a stick nor a kick back guard. I run a table saw without the kick back guard, without anything on top. Those things limit my ability to control the wood during cut, and know what precision I get during the cut. I need exacting straight lines. I do not use a stick to drive wood into the table saw, doesn't make sense to me. I use both of my hands to have a firm grip on every piece of wood running through the table saw in front of and behind the blade. A "stick" will not give me exacting control over a piece of wood running through a table saw. Stop watching the local tv shows on wood working, just a guess or at least a recommendation for those who do. Stop watching those shows who are overly distant from liability. Do it your way. I use two strong hands and arms to control the wood movement through the table saw, NOT SOME DISTANT STICK WITH ONE POINT OF CONTACT, and I don't go stupid. I have 2 hands constant on the wood throughout the cut, in front of the blade and behind the blade, AND MY FINGERS ARE WITHIN A HALF INCH OF THE BLADE SOMETIMES. I have better control over my 2 hands controlling the cut than some DIPSTICK! Look, no one wants to cut off their finger. Just be mindful. If you don't belong on a table saw, then you don't. It sounds like to me, your GF knows what's up. She is aware of her surroundings. Leave her be. I am outside the realm of woodworkers who are scared of tools. Know yourself, and control your tools and limbs. It's easy stuff.
You are going to get a lot of flak over this from our resident experts, but you know what, you use a saw the same way as I see many in the trade.

What you are doing is not for the faint of heart and there is always the danger of getting bitten so nobody is going to recommend it as a safe practice, it just is what it is.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-17-2020, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Well, if youre asking for advice on how to get the lady friend to listen to your safety concerns, show her what happens when those concerns arent followed. The Damage thread is a good place to start, heres a few other links (no gore):
Kickback on Camera! - YouTube
Table Saw Vs. Door! A Quick Demonstration on Kickback - YouTube
Mitre Saw Kickback - YouTube
Miter Saw Accident - YouTube

Those are just examples of what happens when something goes wrong under controlled conditions. You, and hopefully she, will notice that the slightest malfunction causes the entire tool to launch either itself or the workpiece at considerable speed and send things in unpredictable directions. No matter how fast you are, you cant move your hand faster than the blade in a situation like that.

If that doesnt lead to some respect for tools, theres plenty of stuff on the, erm, 'after effects' of people who fail to respect the fact that the only thing standing between a tools user and traumatic amputation is paying attention to basic safety precautions, like keeping your hands away from the spinny bits and securing the workpiece. Degloving, traumatic amputation of digits, punctured eyes from ricocheting parts kicked off saw blades. Ever see what it looks like when someone ignores the label on a metal lathe that says "Tie up loose clothing, do not touch parts in motion"? Its not pleasant to look at.

Respect the damn tools, thats a requirement for anybody using them. A basic safety course needs to be on the table before the next time they get plugged in, otherwise blatant disregard for safety WILL cause an accident
Wow.. these videos are exactly why I bought a new cabinet saw when I was in the market instead of something used with no riving knife or blade guard. I'm fairly new to woodworking and thought hmmm.. sounds like fun until you lose a finger!!! Every so often I'll have the blade guard off and riving knife on and think I just need to make one thru cut it'll be fine... then I think or I could just spend the 20 seconds required to put the blade guard on!!
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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It would be interesting to see statistics on who actually injures themselves on a table saw or any other tool for that matter, particularly a comparison between the casual DIYer and the professional actually working in the industry.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #15 of 24 Old 01-17-2020, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Well, if youre asking for advice on how to get the lady friend to listen to your safety concerns, show her what happens when those concerns arent followed. The Damage thread is a good place to start, heres a few other links (no gore):
Kickback on Camera! - YouTube
Table Saw Vs. Door! A Quick Demonstration on Kickback - YouTube
Mitre Saw Kickback - YouTube
Miter Saw Accident - YouTube

Those are just examples of what happens when something goes wrong under controlled conditions. You, and hopefully she, will notice that the slightest malfunction causes the entire tool to launch either itself or the workpiece at considerable speed and send things in unpredictable directions. No matter how fast you are, you cant move your hand faster than the blade in a situation like that.

If that doesnt lead to some respect for tools, theres plenty of stuff on the, erm, 'after effects' of people who fail to respect the fact that the only thing standing between a tools user and traumatic amputation is paying attention to basic safety precautions, like keeping your hands away from the spinny bits and securing the workpiece. Degloving, traumatic amputation of digits, punctured eyes from ricocheting parts kicked off saw blades. Ever see what it looks like when someone ignores the label on a metal lathe that says "Tie up loose clothing, do not touch parts in motion"? Its not pleasant to look at.

Respect the damn tools, thats a requirement for anybody using them. A basic safety course needs to be on the table before the next time they get plugged in, otherwise blatant disregard for safety WILL cause an accident
Where I work a shop teacher took off two fingers due to kick back,thank goodness he was standing to one side when it happen or it would have hit him in mid section.
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post #16 of 24 Old 01-18-2020, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
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It would be interesting to see statistics on who actually injures themselves on a table saw or any other tool for that matter, particularly a comparison between the casual DIYer and the professional actually working in the industry.
I did a presentation on Tablesaws a while back. There was a large drop in injuries when Sawstop hit the market, after a few years the injury numbers actually surpassed the highs before Sawstop hit the market. I thought it quite interesting. I also question how many kickback injuries would go unreported versus blade contact injuries. Sawstops tech is amazing, but in reality, I think that the mandatory riving knife and the quick-change blade guard is probably the bigger factor in safe operation of a TS.
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-18-2020, 11:08 PM
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Saw Stop prevents blade contact injuries, BUT ....

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Originally Posted by BNB187 View Post
I did a presentation on Tablesaws a while back. There was a large drop in injuries when Sawstop hit the market, after a few years the injury numbers actually surpassed the highs before Sawstop hit the market. I thought it quite interesting. I also question how many kickback injuries would go unreported versus blade contact injuries. Sawstops tech is amazing, but in reality, I think that the mandatory riving knife and the quick-change blade guard is probably the bigger factor in safe operation of a TS.

Agreed!


As I said many years ago, most kickbacks, most, go unreported because there is no trip to the ER because it's not severe enough, and therefore no report. saw Stop doesn't prevent kickbacks which are more common .... just my opinion, no statistics to prove it. Not saying it's not a good idea, but it only solves part of the major issue.



That's why most of my safety posts here deal with the "why" and the "how" of preventing kickbacks. Use a splitter, maintain lateral pressure towards the fence, use only straight edges against the fence, use a push block not a push stick, use a sharp task appropriate blade, keep the blade high enough to prevent it from resisting feed pressure, and I'm sure I forgot some others......?


This practice has eliminated kickbacks in my shop for at least the past 15 + years. I have safety paddle switches on all my table saws so I can turn them off with a hip bump and keep both hands and eyes on the blade and workpiece until the blade stops in the case of a jam or wedged workpiece. No fumbling around and looking under the saw for the OFF switch. The extended outfeed table catches as well as supports cutoffs and the workpiece.



If you can't afford a Saw Stop, there are certainly practices and accessories you can use to minimize the hazards when using a table saw.
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Last edited by woodnthings; 01-18-2020 at 11:13 PM.
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-19-2020, 12:43 PM
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Just curious, does anyone worry about "kickbacks" from tiny loose bits that you trim off or those ultra-thin rips to straighten an edge, stuff like that? Do they count as "kickbacks"?
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post #19 of 24 Old 01-19-2020, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
You are going to get a lot of flak over this from our resident experts, but you know what, you use a saw the same way as I see many in the trade.

What you are doing is not for the faint of heart and there is always the danger of getting bitten so nobody is going to recommend it as a safe practice, it just is what it is.
He's not worth the time Frank.....he's just another kid who thinks he's got it all figured out. Kids like that have to learn the hard way I guess.

Remember he puts his fingers in front and behind the blade within a 1/2 of the blade....stupid is, what stupid does .....Rebel

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post #20 of 24 Old 01-19-2020, 01:04 PM
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Just curious, does anyone worry about "kickbacks" from tiny loose bits that you trim off or those ultra-thin rips to straighten an edge, stuff like that? Do they count as "kickbacks"?
No and no.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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