Complete Upgrade Assistance - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By Rick Christopherson
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 44
View Greengas's Photo Album My Photos
Complete Upgrade Assistance

Most of the tools in my garage woodshop are about 15 to 20 years old and many are in need of replacement so I figured it is a good time to invest some money and do an overall upgrade. I will be upgrading/replacing:

Dust Collection System from a Delta 1hp and the soft pipes to a 2hp or 3hp (ok, overkill I know) with pvc pipes
Miter Saw moving from my Mikita 10" slider to a 12" slider
Band Saw - right now all I have is a non functional bench top and I would like a 14" floor model
Planer upgrading from my dewalt 13" 2 speed to a 15" floor model
Jointer upgrading from my Rikon 6" floor model to an 8" floor model
Various hand power tools like my Riyobe 3x18 belt sander to a 4x24 model
Bosch 5" orbital sander to a 6" model or another 5" with a better vacuum system
Table Saw from a Delta Contractor with a 52" table to a left tilt with riving knife with better vacuum system (does not have to be a 52" )
Track Saw for sheet goods

Well, that's a good start.

As for what type of work I do, I build some furniture, picture frames, and basically what ever the family says they need. I am retired from the Air Force and from being a public school teacher so this is still my hobby but now that I have more time to dedicate to it I want to take my time and do it right. My shop is in our 2 car garage in Aurora Colorado.

I've always had the mind set of when you are buying equipment/tools to get the best you can afford.

What I am looking for is guidance or I guess you could say a consultant as I go into this process and I figure this forum is a good place to start.

Thanks in advance for the guidance.
Greengas is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 04:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,321
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
Just a few comments:

* Upgrade one tool at a time, as you need it.
* Learn each tool well, especially its safety aspects, before buying the next tool.
* Bigger is not always better when it comes to hand tools. Sometimes lighter, smaller, and more controllable is better.
* New tools are not always the best. Sometimes the oldies but goodies are better, sometimes not.
* Think about power distribution (110 and 220 volt), dust collection, wood and tool storage, etc. Planning ahead helps.

Here are a few specific recommendations. These are my dream tools that meet your requirements. I have used them extensively, but do not own the Bosch miter saw or Laguna bandsaw. (I wish I owned the Bosch.)

* SawStop Professional (PCS) or Industrial (ICS) cabinet table saws come in multiple horsepower choices, and have safety features that are not available from anyone else. As table saws, they are a joy to use. Get the T-glide fence in 36 or 52 inches. With a two-car garage, be sure to get the industrial mobile base for it, not the cheap basic mobile base.

* Bosch GCM12SD 12 inch sliding miter saw. Great saw with no long tubes in the back.

* Laguna 14|BX bandsaw. (Comes in 110v, or 220v with more horsepower.)
(I have a Delta bandsaw that works well for me. It is old and used, not latest and best-est, but I would not want to trade it.)
Tool Agnostic is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 05:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 56
View Rick Christopherson's Photo Album My Photos
I agree with Tool Agnostic. You don't need to upgrade everything at once, or even at all. Focus on what needs to be upgraded most, but plan ahead.

Upgrading your dust collection system is a good start, but it doesn't necessarily have to start with a new dust collector. Deal with your distribution first, but plan for making it compatible with a newer collector for the future.

If you have wall access now, run some electrical circuits for future use. You don't need a ton of circuits in a 1-man shop, but you will want a lot of outlets, because many of them will be obstructed or in the wrong place. Too many people get carried away with the number of separate circuits, but for a 1-man shop, virtually all of your convenience outlets can be on 1 or 2 circuits. Even for dedicated tool circuits, you generally cannot operate more than one stationary tool at the same time. Dust collector, compressor, and tablesaw are the main exceptions.

Keep in mind that wire-wise, there is no difference between a 120 and 240 volt circuit. So you can still wire a tool circuit for 120 volts now, and change it over to 240 later.

I didn't see a compressor in your list, but you might want to consider a heavy 5hp compressor. Not only will this be handy for woodworking, but you might find yourself acquiring some pneumatic mechanic's tools, such as impact or ratchet. Furthermore, if you've never operated a Dynabrade ROS sander, it will blow your mind with the difference from ANY electric sander. (I own several Festool sanders that were given to me, but I don't touch them, because nothing compares to a Dynabrade.)

You're right to consider a track saw. My tablesaw and sliding table attachment wouldn't even fit in your garage, at 110 square feet, but I find myself reaching for the tracksaw more often than the tablesaw these days. One doesn't replace the other, but I would have killed to have a track saw back when I was a professional cabinetmaker.

Because you have a tablesaw, I would recommend the Festool TS55 as opposed to the larger TS75. Get several track sizes. I actually use the short ones (32") pretty frequently, but also have 55" and 109" (plus a few others).


Pardon my shameless plug:
One of the most valuable tools in my main (basement) workshop is my Festool ASA5000 overhead boom arm. It's too big for the average woodworker, and costs a ridiculous amount of money. So a few months ago I started to produce/sell my own smaller version of the Festool ASA5000 boom arm, called Prometheus. It allows you to have dust collection, electricity, compressed air, or anything else you want, anywhere in your workshop. Even though I don't do woodworking up in my garage, I mounted a Prometheus boom arm up there just so I could have pneumatics, electric, and vacuum power overhead without tripping over cords.

I took the Festool design, and improved it. Theirs weighs 300 pounds--mine weighs 30 pounds. Theirs requires massive structural support--mine does not. Theirs costs $5000--mine is around $1500. Prometheus is available in 6, 8, and 10 foot lengths, with free shipping in the continental U.S.. (Just in case anyone was wondering, I am a former Festool consulting engineer.)

Prometheus can be ordered at: http://www.rts-engineering.com/


Rick Christopherson is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 06:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 56
View Rick Christopherson's Photo Album My Photos
Oops. After a quick glance at the forum rules, I am a little worried I broke them with my previous posting. I thought it might be OK, as I was responding to a specific question. If that is not the case, please notify me and I will immediately edit my posting as necessary. Sorry in advance.
Rick Christopherson is online now  
post #5 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 44
View Greengas's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Just a few comments:

* Upgrade one tool at a time, as you need it.
* Learn each tool well, especially its safety aspects, before buying the next tool.
* Bigger is not always better when it comes to hand tools. Sometimes lighter, smaller, and more controllable is better.
* New tools are not always the best. Sometimes the oldies but goodies are better, sometimes not.
* Think about power distribution (110 and 220 volt), dust collection, wood and tool storage, etc. Planning ahead helps.

Here are a few specific recommendations. These are my dream tools that meet your requirements. I have used them extensively, but do not own the Bosch miter saw or Laguna bandsaw. (I wish I owned the Bosch.)

* SawStop Professional (PCS) or Industrial (ICS) cabinet table saws come in multiple horsepower choices, and have safety features that are not available from anyone else. As table saws, they are a joy to use. Get the T-glide fence in 36 or 52 inches. With a two-car garage, be sure to get the industrial mobile base for it, not the cheap basic mobile base.

* Bosch GCM12SD 12 inch sliding miter saw. Great saw with no long tubes in the back.

* Laguna 14|BX bandsaw. (Comes in 110v, or 220v with more horsepower.)
(I have a Delta bandsaw that works well for me. It is old and used, not latest and best-est, but I would not want to trade it.)
Thanks for the great guidance. After reading the comments I got I think I will go a bit slower. I know I need to upgrade the sliding mitre saw and the dust collector (just need to decide if I want to run 6" or 4" main line) and of course I don't have a band saw, so...

But as I move around this wonderful forum I found that the best place to post my "which tool is best" is under tool reviews so I will move to there. Thanks again.
Greengas is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 44
View Greengas's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for the guidance and shameless plug. :-) It's clear you do love Festool and I was thinking of them when it comes to my track saw. But as I mentioned in my other reply, I see that the forum has a specific location for asking for tool reviews/comparisons so I will now happily move over to there.

Thanks again.
Greengas is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 08:15 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 56
View Rick Christopherson's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greengas View Post
....... I see that the forum has a specific location for asking for tool reviews/comparisons so I will now happily move over to there.

No, you're in the right place. The review forum is for posting reviews, not for asking advice, such as you are doing.
woodnthings likes this.
Rick Christopherson is online now  
post #8 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 08:30 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 26,254
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Questions VS Reviews ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson View Post
No, you're in the right place. The review forum is for posting reviews, not for asking advice, such as you are doing.

Seeking advice is what you are doing. A review gives the opinions of a machine already purchased, not what you need ...however you may find a review of a machine you are considering over there.


I'm a Grizzly fan having owned about 5 different machines. They are the best bang for the buck and get great reviews of most models. Their tech support is also very good. I would equip my entire new shop with their machines if I were starting over.



I do own one Powermatic, a 12" 5 HP table saw and it is very well made and robust, scary powerful and it was expensive. "Nuf said.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #9 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 10:08 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Lancaster, Ohio
Posts: 50
View evilboweivel's Photo Album My Photos
I own a SawStop ICS with the mobile base, highly recommend this saw, HOWEVER with that being said you need to investigate the combination units available and see if one of those fits you better. They are not for me, however with you willing to redo your complete shop at one time it would be possible for you to do so IF IT FITS YOUR STYLE.

Definitely spend the money for a good dust collection system NOW. Get a cyclone unit with at least a 8 inch main line trunk, stepping it down in size as branch lines come off of it way more expensive to redo two or three times to get what you need NOW. Wire it up to automatically turn on when you start a tool up that is piped to it. Get or build a a good air filter system and set it to run all the time you are out there , plus. Use a good shop vacuum with a cyclone for hand power tools, mine is piped in with 2" pvc pipe to workbench, top of blade on table saw, panel saw, drill press, etc.

Eliminate the dust the best you absolutely can now and upgrade the tools as you figure out what you want, need or just desire.

Good Luck
Ron
evilboweivel is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 01-01-2020, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 44
View Greengas's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for the guidance. I really do appreciate it. I am looking at the SawStop, possibly the Industrial Model with the 32" table (I was told that if I invest in a solid track saw I could use that to handle big sheet goods and it will be better than using a table saw making it possible to reduce my table saw footprint). I know you can get a slider table attachment but I feel that would be overkill. I was thinking of getting their folding outfeed table and overhead dust collection set up. You mentioned combination units. Are you referring to a table saw that has a router table at one end? If so, then like you, that is not for me. For right now, I rank the purchase of the upgraded Table Saw as purchase #2.

I've said that upgrading my miter saw was purchase #1 but upgrading the vac system is actually 1a. I agree with getting a cyclone unit and was thinking around the 2hp range with 6" trunk lines. I can't think of a time when I will be running more than one tool at a time so I figure a good 2hp system will work and from what I've seen they mostly come with a 6" setup. I will be putting up a post about the specifics of what I'm looking for but for now, if you have any recommendations I would really appreciate it.
Greengas is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 01-01-2020, 06:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,321
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
I have a SawStop PCS 175 with the industrial mobile base and the folding outfeed table.

If you get a SawStop cabinet saw (either PCS or ICS) get the industrial mobile base, no matter the cost. If you get a PCS, you will need an adapter for the base, not a big deal. Don't be tempted to get the cheaper mobile base for the PCS, you will regret it and wish you had bought the industrial mobile base.

The folding outfeed table is nice, and I would probably buy it again, but:

* It takes hours to assemble. It is grid of metal bars, with small screws, washers, and nuts at every intersection.
* It does not fold flat against the back of my PCS. It sits at a slight angle because it bumps into the industrial mobile base wheel supports in the back. Not a real issue, but annoying.
* The unsupported legs fold right and left. It is weird and awkward to fold and unfold the legs. I reach through the grid to do it. It works, but I can think of better designs. Again - not a real issue, but annoying.
* Because it is a grid, if your work is thin enough and droopy enough, it can catch on a lower horizontal element and stop the cut in progress. What really happens is offcuts from previous cuts get pushed back until they can tip and catch on those horizontal bars. Yeah, we should clear the saw after every cut.

Bottom line: I said that I would buy it again, but I would give it careful consideration first. Having said that and knowing what I know now, I would at least think about making my own folding outfeed table instead. The SawStop model is not without its flaws. You could make a better, more functional folding outfeed table for a lot less money.
Tool Agnostic is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 01-01-2020, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 44
View Greengas's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for the guidance on the folding outfeed table. How do you like the saw? You have the PCS. Why did you choose that over the ICS?
Greengas is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 01-01-2020, 07:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Lancaster, Ohio
Posts: 50
View evilboweivel's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greengas View Post
Thanks for the guidance. I really do appreciate it. I am looking at the SawStop, possibly the Industrial Model with the 32" table (I was told that if I invest in a solid track saw I could use that to handle big sheet goods and it will be better than using a table saw making it possible to reduce my table saw footprint). I know you can get a slider table attachment but I feel that would be overkill. I was thinking of getting their folding outfeed table and overhead dust collection set up. You mentioned combination units. Are you referring to a table saw that has a router table at one end? If so, then like you, that is not for me. For right now, I rank the purchase of the upgraded Table Saw as purchase #2.

I've said that upgrading my miter saw was purchase #1 but upgrading the vac system is actually 1a. I agree with getting a cyclone unit and was thinking around the 2hp range with 6" trunk lines. I can't think of a time when I will be running more than one tool at a time so I figure a good 2hp system will work and from what I've seen they mostly come with a 6" setup. I will be putting up a post about the specifics of what I'm looking for but for now, if you have any recommendations I would really appreciate it.
The Industrial per SawStop website is only available with 36 or 52 fence, when i bought my SawStop a 32 fence was available also. I was strongly advised not to buy it as it was different, don't remember what was different now. So highly advise looking over the fences before buying. The ICS mobile base was pricey, however well worth it, would buy again. Mine is 5hp, no substitute for power when needed. The folding table was not available then and looking at it now I can't recommend it. I do have a folding outfeed roller table (https://www.woodcraft.com/products/h...table-hor-1038) on mine and am very happy with it. I bought the overarm dust hose to blade collector for it and don't recommend that either, do to sawdust continuously plugin at the pivot point. I do like the looks of the new floating dust collection guard and probably will buy one.

Combination machines I was referring to are European designed Felder, Scmi, etc. Table saw, shaper, mortising, jointer, planer, etc in one machine with multiple motors. I was not aware of them when I bought the SawStop and probably still would have bought the SawStop for the safety factor. Just something to be aware of and investigate to see if it would be a good fit for you as you said you want to do a complete refit of your shop.

I am in the process of upgrading my dust collection system again for my basement shop. I can fill a few pages with my journey to where i am now and still not happy. Did a dust collection system in a shop back in 1988 used a 15hp cyclone outside, pvc 12" pipe dropping down in size the further away for the cyclone as each branch came off, no blast gates, worked great when kit was turned on. Now in the basement a lot smaller system that I have put together over the last 15 years. The new cyclones now available for home shop look to be real nice and easy to install. Size your pipe right, keep your bends flowing smoothly. Blast gates are nice as long as you use them. Remember at least two 4" lines open all the time to feed a 6" duct.

Read up on dust collection, start here http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/, then look elsewhere as in other boards, etc. Lots of opinions out there, can get heated at times.
Longer than I planed to write

Good luck and remember cheaper to do it right now than to redo it in a few years again.
Ron
evilboweivel is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 01-02-2020, 10:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,321
View Tool Agnostic's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greengas View Post
Thanks for the guidance on the folding outfeed table. How do you like the saw? You have the PCS. Why did you choose that over the ICS?
You're welcome.

I had used two ICSs with different horsepower ratings as well as a PCS before buying a PCS 175. The PCS 175 is right-size for my needs and easier on the budget. I don't have 220 yet, which was one factor, but not a real impediment. Smaller footprint is another (the SawStop contractor saw has a larger footprint in storage).

The best place to see a comparison of the SawStop ICS and PCS saws is here:
https://www.sawstop.com/support/product-comparison
Here is an older, but helpful article:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/a...l-cabinet-saw/

Here is a summary of the extra features that you get when you buy an ICS over a PCS:

* The ICS table and wings are 3 inches deeper than the PCS table and wings. A few standard 27 inch accessories might not fit, but who cares if you own an ICS?
* The ICS table and wings are made from thicker cast iron than the PCS table and wings.
* The ICS trunnions and other support and positioning structures are beefier than the PCS.
* The ICS motor is larger and heavier than the PCS motor. You can fit a PCS motor on the left side of the cabinet, but the larger ICS motor would stick out, so it is on the right side of the cabinet.
* The ICS cabinet is larger than the PCS cabinet.

Whatever you buy, get SawStop's industrial mobile base for it. You need an adapter to support the smaller PCS in an industrial mobile base because its cabinet is smaller than the ICS cabinet. Even if you buy a PCS, get the industrial mobile base. The ease of use and movement make this choice a no brainer.

If you get a PCS, avoid the professional integrated mobile base. Get the industrial mobile base (and PCS adapter) instead. You won't regret it.

P.S. Here is another very useful article. If you are thinking about a PCS, this one is so helpful for understanding the subtitles and features of a PCS, although it also discusses the contractor saw, which I do not recommend:
https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2019/0...-professional/
Tool Agnostic is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome