sharpening harder plane irons - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 09-22-2020, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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sharpening harder plane irons

Ive gotten myself 4 vintage Stanley's. A block plane from maybe the 70s. A no4 from the 60s. No5 dated 1941, and my most recent purchase was a no7 I figure to be from 1907-1909, according to the website dating Stanley's.

Fortunately the former owner of the no7 had upgraded to the pm-v11 blade, I have the original and chip breaker with it. It was almost worn.

My dilemma appears to be, my sharpening system for my previous 3 Stanley's. Doesn't seem to cut it for the pm-v11. Taking forever to get a burr.

I've been using 3m paper spray adhered to a piece of glass.

I also have a cheapo diamond plate from princess auto. But the plate is sooo much narrower than the plane blade. I use my cheap honing guide. Not at free hand level.

I'm not even really sure what I'm asking here. I guess does anyone use pm-v11 steel. How do you sharpen it, how does it work?

Nick J
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post #2 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 10:21 AM
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https://www.fine-tools.com/pm-v11-steel.html

After more than two years of research and testing, VERITAS introduced plane blades produced from PM-V11, a new steel alloy. The PM refers to a process known as powder metallurgy, whereby molten metals are atomized into small particles, which cool and harden into a fine powder that is then heated under pressure to form an ingot. To make PM-V11, a unique mixture of metals combined into a proprietary alloy yields a steel with a very fine, uniform grain structure that is inherently more durable than that of steels produced using ordinary manufacturing processes.

Blades made from PM-VI1 are highly resistant to dulling or damage from wear and impact, yet are as easy to sharpen as A2 tool steel. PM-V11 blades can take a keen edge and hold it through extended use; once dulled, the edge can be quickly returned to a sharp condition using water stones or other common sharpening methods. The testing shows that a PM-V11 blade edge lasts at least twice as long in use as an A2 blade before it needs sharpening - a significant improvement over common blade steels in use today.

Though most of our Japanese waterstones work well with powder metallurgy steel blades we at fine-tools.com recommend to sharpen powder metallurgy steel blades on Shapton stones.

Woody
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post #3 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 10:23 AM
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sharpening harder plane irons-story_radarchart.jpg

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post #4 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 10:49 AM
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Powder metallurgy is great!

These manufacturers have won awards back in 2018 for their use of PM. I was familiar with Strum Ruger's use in their firearms, a cost and time saving process with little or no downside.


https://www.mpif.org/News/PressRelea...tal-Parts.aspx

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #5 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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From woodys diagram I'm assuming all my other blades are 01 steel, was that the stock steel in older stanleys?

I don't the cash for a set of stones. Bass anyone had any luck with a specific brand/type of sand paper?

I see lee vallley has some diamond lapping fipm for relatively cheap.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...d-lapping-film

Does anyone have any experience with these? How much faster do they cut than wet/dry paper, and do they longer?

Nick J
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post #6 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 12:14 PM
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I recently got this .....

It's heavy, won't move around and simple to use. I like it way more than anything I've used before. It will hold additional stones of almost any size. The stone is also a great deal with two sides:
https://www.amazon.com/SATC-Diamond-...0877500&sr=8-9

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-23-2020 at 12:19 PM.
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post #7 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 04:51 PM
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There are differences between diamond stones. Low priced ones are not as good, but a higher price is not always an indicator of the best quality. Differences include which underlying plate material is used and its thickness, the type of diamond crystals used, and how they are bound to the plate.

Here are two important lessons that I learned from using diamond stones:

* Don't press hard. It won't sharpen your blade better or faster. All it will do is wear out the diamond stone quicker. If you press hard enough, you can damage the bonding agent that holds the diamond crystals to the plate or cause the diamond crystals to pop out.

* Diamond is the hardest substance known to man, and diamond stones are very durable. Diamond stones can and do wear out, especially if you use them excessively, such as flattening large areas of the backs of old hand plane blades (don't do that!).

I started with an ultra-cheap diamond stone. On that one, you can see patches where the diamond material and bonding agent flaked off and disappeared completely. In fairness, it might have done better with proper use and care. (See the "important lessons" above.) I replaced it with two DMT "Duo-sharp" and one "Dia-sharp" stones, which are better, but were disappointing to me. I feel that I did not got my value from them, especially considering the cost.

DMT's test for "worn out" is to rub a piece of glass (a glass bottle or jar, for example) on the diamond stone, and see if scratches appear on the glass. My hunch is that nearly any diamond stone will do that. In my opinion, that test works great for a company that does not want to replace worn out diamond stones under warranty. It is my personal belief that the proper test is whether the diamond stone sharpens your blades effectively and efficiently. If you are spending all day sharpening a blade, it doesn't matter if the stone can scratch glass.

I searched for better diamond stones, and just bought a Trend sharpening kit. It just arrived, so I have not had a chance to try it yet. I bought it after watching a video that was recommended by someone here on WoodworkingTalk. See below for the video.

Here is the video I mentioned above. (Hint: The yellow diamond stone in the video looks like a DMT Duo-Sharp stone.)
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post #8 of 18 Old 09-23-2020, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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I should also be asking. What brands on sandpaper are best?

I got a 40 pack 8x11 of variety grits from princess auto n sale for 10 bucks. They last about 2 mins of sharpening. Not even.

The 3m auto body ones. I got a few 5 packs, they seem to last longer but I only found them in 8x3 sheets. 5 for around $5..

I've seen klingspor mentioned before on here, should I start with that?

Nick J
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post #9 of 18 Old 09-24-2020, 10:17 AM
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Nick, I use the ones from Lee Valley. They go down to extremely fine grits. You might want to check out their site.
Brian

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post #10 of 18 Old 09-24-2020, 11:22 AM
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When I re-started my woodworking, I stocked up on an assortment of sandpaper from Harbor Freight. It was awful, and I am glad I have very little left to use up. I suspect it is similar to your "Princess Auto" sandpaper. Yuck!

I ordered a 20 pound random box of Klingspor rolls, and could not be happier. The quality and durability of the Klingspor sandpaper is good. I don't change it out nearly as often as Harbor Freight sandpaper.

See this thread:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/s...dpaper-186777/
Especially this post, which lists what I got in my random box. A new order would be different, of course. The post includes photos:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/s...7/#post1830458

Bottom line:
I got a good selection of sandpaper - a lot of quality sandpaper for $35. The width of the rolls make them good for hand plane soles and blades (and long enough for a #7 or #8 hand plane sole), as well as our "Preppin' Weapon" sanding blocks.

I highly recommend the Preppin' Weapon sanding blocks. They are made practically next door to me, in Orange, California, USA:
http://secure.mm5server.com/merchant...oduct_Code=P10
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=preppin+weapon
https://www.rockler.com/preppin-weapon-sanding-block
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/p...-sanding-block
etc.
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post #11 of 18 Old 09-24-2020, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the suggestions, lots to consider.

For now I'm going to use up my crappy paper. And decide if I want to invest in 2 3/4 wide stones, or more paper.

I'm happy to hear that at least some have had good results with the cheaper stones.
I may try and cheap out.

Thanks guys.

Nick J
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post #12 of 18 Old 09-28-2020, 10:24 PM
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Looks like you got a nice haul (depending on what you spent).

My personal method: stones for maintenance (blade sharpening), sandpaper on flat substrate for restoration/reshaping.

I have a set of DMT DiaSharp stones, and have been happy with them. I've read a few negative reviews about quality issues in DMT stones, such as ribbing in the plate that makes uneven work. But mostly good stuff. You pay a bit for them, and there are less expensive options.

For tool reconditioning/restoration, I bought these sandpaper rolls. They last a good while, and are adhesive backed so I don't have to worry about tape or glue.
120 grit - https://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-...s%2C173&sr=8-4
220 grit - https://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-...s%2C173&sr=8-3

On your comment about using the cheapo diamond plate that's narrower than your blade ... Don't use anything that's not at least as wide as your tool, or you'll definitely have uneven wear!

Geoff
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post #13 of 18 Old 09-29-2020, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
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that appears to be the same sandpaper rob cosman had recommended as well. guess thats what ill be keeping my eye on come reload time!

Nick J
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post #14 of 18 Old 09-29-2020, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick2727 View Post
I should also be asking. What brands on sandpaper are best?

I got a 40 pack 8x11 of variety grits from princess auto n sale for 10 bucks. They last about 2 mins of sharpening. Not even.

The 3m auto body ones. I got a few 5 packs, they seem to last longer but I only found them in 8x3 sheets. 5 for around $5..

I've seen klingspor mentioned before on here, should I start with that?
Gonna level with you, when it comes to sandpaper theres not really a difference in longevity between 'good' and 'best', especially when youre talking about tougher materials like wear-resistant tool steels. At best, youre talking about a difference of a few minutes. Worth noting though, there is a world of difference between 'okay-ish' and 'good'. As long as you stick with a decent name brand, 3m, Klingspor, etc, then theres not a whole lot of difference.

That out of the way, i recommend getting your hands on some Rhynowet Redline paper. It doesnt last any longer, but it does cut better longer. What i mean by that is a lot of brands have a linear degradation in how rapidly they degrade, that is to say if you were to put performance on a graph of time vs cutting, it would look like this \, with top left being the best it cuts when you start, and bottom right being the end of its life. In comparison, the rhynowet looks more like Į|. It cuts as great as it does at the start for its entire lifespan, right up until it doesnt

This is all just academic though, youre wasting time and money sharpening a steel like that entirely on sandpaper. Steels too tough, sandpaper only is great for simple carbon steels, but pm-v11 is supposed to be some tough stuff, its meant to resist abrasion. More it resists abrasion, the more abrasive you have to use, and itll eat through sandpaper pretty fast. Best bet would be to get a diamond plate for the lower grits, but keep using the sandpaper for the higher stuff. That way, you can use the diamond for the bulk of the work, then the sandpaper for the final polish. Best of both worlds. You can find diamond plates surprisingly cheap, if youre willing to take a chance on flatness. Something like these. They cut well, but again, you take a chance of getting one thats not 100% flat. If you can swing it, grab a DMT duosharp in the coarse/fine grades, if not grab the ebay specials in 240 and 600 grits, then some 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit sandpaper

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post #15 of 18 Old 09-29-2020, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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its not taking me long to realize that even at the prices of the good diamond stones, its cheaper in the long run. ive probably used like 30-40 bucks in sandpaper in no time!

as for the person mentioning the haul. i dont mind saying they prices i paid maybe i didnt get that great of deal.

the 1960s era no4 was $40 cad, the sweetheart no5. 1941 made in canada was 100. and i paid 160 for the no7 with the lee valley blade. all original parts. the no7 came with the near wore out original stanley blade as well.

im not sure if they were a good deal or not. but i was able to grab them all locally and didnt need to order online.

edit: thanks for the heads up about all the better paper being alike. i kinda had my suspicions. i did yesterday grab a few sheets of norton from the box store, to try out.

diamond stones are generally more preferred than watersones? due to less maintenance?

im leaning towards trying the lee valley lapping film attached to my glass sheet next, if that doesnt work. ill bite the bullet and just get a good 2 sided stones.

Nick J
Edmonton, AB, Canada

Last edited by Nick2727; 09-29-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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post #16 of 18 Old 09-29-2020, 10:40 PM
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its not taking me long to realize that even at the prices of the good diamond stones, its cheaper in the long run. ive probably used like 30-40 bucks in sandpaper in no time!
Yep!

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as for the person mentioning the haul. i dont mind saying they prices i paid maybe i didnt get that great of deal.

the 1960s era no4 was $40 cad, the sweetheart no5. 1941 made in canada was 100. and i paid 160 for the no7 with the lee valley blade. all original parts. the no7 came with the near wore out original stanley blade as well.

im not sure if they were a good deal or not. but i was able to grab them all locally and didnt need to order online.
Not super good, about going rate, last I looked on eBay. But that Lee Valley blade added $50 to the value. Fact you got them locally is really nice! I can't find anything around my area. You paid what you paid for a set of tools. You'll have the tools forever, and you'll forget how much you paid.

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diamond stones are generally more preferred than watersones? due to less maintenance?
I think this is a "tool of choice" type of question. Both types have their merits and issues. AFAIK, if you get water stones, you need at least one diamond stone to keep the water stones flat.

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post #17 of 18 Old 09-29-2020, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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i thought they were about the going rate. the no4 and no5 were from the same guy. so i saved a trip picking them up.

also the no7 the dude already did the grunt work grinding the sole and frog flat. i was happy paying a tad bit more.

and also i agree. these are 1 time purchases. and aside from the modern no4. i figure the other 2 should hold value fairly well.

also, this is the beater diamond stone i got. would it be enough to flatten a waterstone? its 6"x2"...

https://www.princessauto.com/en/deta...ne/A-p8569212e

because if its not. ill probably want to upgrade the diamond stone before getting water stones.

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post #18 of 18 Old 09-30-2020, 04:45 AM
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diamond stones are generally more preferred than watersones? due to less maintenance?
Eh, partially, but thats not the entire story. Some people go insane over there super high quality japanese water stones, and you know what? Doesnt make any sense. Water stones big draw is that theyre extremely friable, the stone is constantly breaking down to expose fresh, sharp abrasive grains which keep cutting the steel. Sounds great, until you realize that the stone breaking down means your stone is changing shape incredibly fast. Waterstones need an annoying amount of maintenance, you have to soak them before use, storing them is tricky because of their waterlogged nature, they need to be flattened constantly, and frankly they dont actually work any better

In contrast, diamond plates dont dull (practically speaking. Maybe after 30 years of use), owing to how hard the abrasive is. No dulling means that the abrasive doesnt need to be friable, means that the stone never changes shape. Maintenance is non-existent, and the end result is the same, a sharp blade

Becomes even more important on more exotic steels that are more wear resistant. Same problem you have with sandpaper, the abrasive breaks down before the steel does, so you need more abrasive to sharpen, which means you go through more of the stone. Diamond, meanwhile, laughs in the face of those steels.

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