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post #21 of 40 Old 04-16-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BZawat View Post
No, it's a blanket statement about hand planes made in a particular country. And it's 100% true.
Well, given that mine is made in China and not crap, it can't possibly be 100% true. That's mathematically impossible

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post #22 of 40 Old 04-16-2015, 07:37 PM
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Talking in absolutes is never correct (hopefully someone sees the irony in that statement, though true)
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post #23 of 40 Old 04-16-2015, 08:45 PM
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Talking in absolutes is never correct (hopefully someone sees the irony in that statement, though true)
Only a sith deals in absolutes

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post #24 of 40 Old 04-16-2015, 08:49 PM
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Sharpening

I thought that this thread was about sharpening hand plane irons and not plane iron manufacturing?

If you want to debate steel I get similar responses on a Kitchen Knife Forum where Japanese hand forged steels are compared to unknown processed steel from China that seems to be vastly inferior from the likes of chefs, professional sharpeners, and knife dealers.

The only tools that I have ever purchased from China (many years ago) were total and absolute junk so, I don't have any recent data except from the knife forum.

The bottom line is can the plane iron achieve and good edge and keep it under normal use. The other manufacturing considerations are plane design and manufacturing short cuts and flaws which will effect performance even with a sharp edge.

Sharpening for me is with good quality water stones that don't need to be soaked too long and stones that don't dish out before i get my edge established.

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post #25 of 40 Old 04-17-2015, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Well, given that mine is made in China and not crap, it can't possibly be 100% true. That's mathematically impossible

No offense, but coming from someone who says that a cheap POS Kobalt bench plane is every bit as good as a Veritas or Lie Nielsen, I'm going to keep my eggs in my own basket, thank you very much. You can tell people whatever you want - I know better.
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post #26 of 40 Old 04-17-2015, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BZawat View Post
No offense, but coming from someone who says that a cheap POS Kobalt bench plane is every bit as good as a Veritas or Lie Nielsen, I'm going to keep my eggs in my own basket, thank you very much. You can tell people whatever you want - I know better.
Kinda rude, dontcha think mate? You've still yet to come up with one actual reason those stupidly high priced bench planes make shavings any better than my $10 China made craftsman. So pong as you take 5 minutes to make sure the sole is true and the blade is sharp, every plane is going to work the same

Ive never understood the logic behind making an attack ad homenim. Its pretty much the ultimate concession that you have so little to support your argument you have to resort to cheap insults that don't relate to the actual topic

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post #27 of 40 Old 04-17-2015, 03:23 PM
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There are good and bad tools coming out of China, but so far I haven't seen any great ones. Even the better manufacturers are very inconsistent. If you want. Cheap plane you're better off looking on Ebay or even flea markets.
As for planing being difficult; It is no more difficult than playing guitar, but you have to spend time learning and practicing either to get good at it.

Those who say it cannot be done should stay out of the way of the people doing it.
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post #28 of 40 Old 04-17-2015, 06:27 PM
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It is more like a five hour job to get the sole and blade flat on a China plane. Even after that the blade and adjustments are awful. Most people can't afford a lie Nelson plane. An old Stanley Bailey is a much better solution than a China made junker.
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post #29 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Kinda rude, dontcha think mate? You've still yet to come up with one actual reason those stupidly high priced bench planes make shavings any better than my $10 China made craftsman. So pong as you take 5 minutes to make sure the sole is true and the blade is sharp, every plane is going to work the same

Ive never understood the logic behind making an attack ad homenim. Its pretty much the ultimate concession that you have so little to support your argument you have to resort to cheap insults that don't relate to the actual topic
A side by side independent comparison will reveal the difference between the $10 Chinese made plane and the Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes. To claim that your $10 plane is as good as or better than the others is a bit of a stretch of the obvious for any craftsman.
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post #30 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 04:54 AM
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A side by side independent comparison will reveal the difference between the $10 Chinese made plane and the Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes. To claim that your $10 plane is as good as or better than the others is a bit of a stretch of the obvious for any craftsman.
Please, educate me then, what is it that makes that veritas plane any better? The quality of the metal casting? Can't be that, planes have been made out of wood for centuries. Quality of the blade steel? Debatable at best. 9 out of 10 plane blades are made from either O1 or 440 stainless steel. Both easy to heat treat, hard to screw up and hold an edge extremely well. Sure, the properitary alloys used by veritas may last a tiny bit longer, but you still have to sharpen those blades too, and one sharp blade will make shaving just as well as another regardless of the type of steel.

Again, I'm still waiting for someone to provide a coherent argument as to why a 300 veritas plane will inherently work any better than a $5 plane. If you want to claim that a side by side independent comparison will prove that the veritas plane makes better shaving than a well tuned any other plane, I I Vite you to link sources, rather than insulting me. Honestly, the elitism is getting old

Ive said it once and I'll say it again, high priced tools ARE NOT necessary to doing anything. Only a poor craftsman blames the results on the tools, be they good or bad. If you can only get good results when your working with a tool that costs more than most peoples monthly salary, well, that say more about you than me

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post #31 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 08:18 AM
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Sharpening Hand Plane

It is hard to make a block plane that doesn't work. The difference in quality is clear on a larger plane. I agree that a person doesn't have to have high quality tools to do work, but to say bottom of the barrel tools are as good as top of the line tools is completely wrong.
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post #32 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 09:55 AM
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I've had good and bad luck with Chinese planes. The no. 33 from HF is a decent scrub plane although the iron is lousy - it chipped planing basswood. For $5 for a coarse plane it isn't terrible.

I have two India made planes and they are pure trash though (Groz). I spent time flattening the sole, honing the blades, etc and they don't work at all. The adjusters just don't plain work and the iron folds over planing anything but soft pine.

I agree with others that that older Stanley's are your best bet for a cheap user. I have a few I picked up for $1 each at yard sales and they work much better than the low end planes you get today and the irons do hold an edge much better.

In the end I think it just comes down to experience though - I know it took me a while to get the hang of using and adjusting them. It's interesting to see someone who is used to setting them up use one you think is junk too. I took a class on planes with Roy Underhill and took an old wooden fore plane with me that I could never get to use right. In less than 5 minutes he had that thing taking beautiful shavings.
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post #33 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 03:29 PM
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You know, so far ive had 3 separate members insult my intelligence and skill level, but nobody yet has answered this simple question:
What is it that makes this make shavings any better than this?

I have the second one. I took 5 minutes to make sure the sole was flat and I lapped and sharpened the iron. These are basic steps that anybody should take with any plane, regardless of how much you paid. I got this plane 2years ago. In that time, I have use that plane for everything from cutting a chamfer to trimming a miter to leveling out an end grain cutting board. Each and every time I use it, it never fails to do exactly what I ask. I keep the blade sharp, and it will take transparent shavings off the toughest hardwoods ive worked with and leave a silky smooth finish on end grain. It does exactly what a plane should.

Now somebody please explain what extra feature the veritas plane has that makes it any better at doing the exact same things that my craftsman already does perfectly. Honestly, id love to hear a coherent argument that doesn't begin and end with "its better because it just is, you're stupid".

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post #34 of 40 Old 04-18-2015, 03:44 PM
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Threads like this amuse me and exasperate me.I don't think steel knows that it should have different qualities if it is made in different locations.The metallurgy depends on the constituent parts of the alloy and the way in which it is heat treated.From this piece of steel we should be able to generate a good cutting edge if we have the technique for sharpening perfected.

It is a major problem if the sole of the plane isn't flat and I have been asked to work on a couple of cheap planes that weren't.It took less than an hour to flatten the soles and a couple of minutes to get a good cutting edge.Neither the owner of the planes or myself were under the illusion that they were great planes,but after a little work they were totally usable.

Just to clarify the point about origins of steel,last summer I found myself with a few hours of inactivity and a pile of assorted magazines to help pass the time.One of them was devoted to drag racing and had a feature about a particularly successful engine builder.He claimed that his engines had improved considerably since he found a producer of steel in China who provided the best crankshaft blanks in the world today.They have the knowledge and ability to produce quality but faced with western buyers seeking rock bottom prices they respond accordingly.

My last couple of planes were Stanleys that weren't new and needed work and they stand comparison with my Norris A5 for the quality of finish-but they ought to as they all get sharpened on the same 6000 grit waterstone.
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post #35 of 40 Old 04-28-2015, 11:41 AM
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I have no idea what your skill level is and I don't mean to insult you, but as one poster mentioned it really sounds like you are going against the grain and getting tear out instead of shavings.

You've bought a plane that truthfully is meant for the bottom of a carpenters toolbox, not a ww'ers benchtop. It doesn't mean it won't work but you will most likely become frustrated with inconsistency and constant fiddling to keep it adjusted. This is because of inherent flaws in machining and the design of the frog/blade adjuster as well as the cap iron/blade assemble.

As far as what makes a Veritas a "better" tool than a Craftsman, its all the thinks mentioned above. For example, I've seen pot metal instead of steel used for cap irons on the cheaper planes. I've seen adjusters with even more slop then a Stanley and will not keep the blade a consistent depth.

Whatever all the factors are, from my own experience you will see the difference when you use them. There's probably not much in a block plane but when you get into the larger bench planes no question there will be a huge difference between Craftsman/Stanley vs. Veritas/Lie Nielsen.

My first "decent" (for lack of better term) plane was a WoodRiver #6 I only bought because it was on sale for $50 off. Well, compared to the old Stanleys I was using it was a revelation.

My next 2 planes were a step up to a Lie Nielsen LA Jack and a 4 1/2 smoother.

All I can say is you know the diff when you put them in your hands. Its got to do with mass, machining, and the blade quality. You gotta ask yourself why is one plane is $35 and the other is 10X the cost.

Last edited by DrRobert; 04-28-2015 at 11:56 AM.
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I'm a novice without a doubt, but not enough of a novice to go cross grain. I think the long and the short of it is that the plane isn't sharp enough / configured properly. As far as the difference in planes go, the reality that there exist 10x more expensive planes isn't lost on me. My question was about whether you can get a cheap plane to "work", not about whether you can get it to work as well as the much more expensive counterparts.

I did a lot of research around this, and I actually found a video of a guy endeavoring to see if he could get the plane to work well just as an experiment. He goes through all of the steps necessary to clean up factory defects and get things working in a more predictable fashion. In his case, he wants to use it as a scrub plane, but even still. I've been pulled in other directions and haven't been able to try it, but his results gave me enough information to explore the subject myself.

For any future reader, the video is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7lu67ULsk

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post #37 of 40 Old 04-29-2015, 11:27 AM
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Hello, guys, I'm a newby on this chat-room thing. So been reading about the guy with the kobalt handplane. First question in my mind is: did you grind or file the iron before you started honing it? Stupid question I suppose, but you never mentioned about that part...
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post #38 of 40 Old 04-29-2015, 01:34 PM
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My question was about whether you can get a cheap plane to "work", not about whether you can get it to work as well as the much more expensive counterparts]
Yes, and also yes

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post #39 of 40 Old 04-29-2015, 09:13 PM
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I'm a novice without a doubt, but not enough of a novice to go cross grain. I think the long and the short of it is that the plane isn't sharp enough / configured properly. As far as the difference in planes go, the reality that there exist 10x more expensive planes isn't lost on me. My question was about whether you can get a cheap plane to "work", not about whether you can get it to work as well as the much more expensive counterparts.

I did a lot of research around this, and I actually found a video of a guy endeavoring to see if he could get the plane to work well just as an experiment. He goes through all of the steps necessary to clean up factory defects and get things working in a more predictable fashion. In his case, he wants to use it as a scrub plane, but even still. I've been pulled in other directions and haven't been able to try it, but his results gave me enough information to explore the subject myself.

For any future reader, the video is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7lu67ULsk
I don't think anybody suggested that you tried to go cross grain but up grain. If you look at the side of a board the grain flows up or down (very seldom is it totally straight across). If your plaining into that up grain direction you will tear it instead of slicing it.

While some people insist that the cheapest planes can perform as well or better than the top end planes, that's a matter of opinion not shared by myself.

Jack
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post #40 of 40 Old 04-30-2015, 09:49 AM
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I'm a novice without a doubt, but not enough of a novice to go cross grain.
Planing against the grain is not the same as cross grain. Think of a wad of straws at an angle you want to plane in the direction of the rise, or else your blade will get "hung" on the edges and you'll get tear out. This principle applies to both edge planing and face planing, although in face planing it can be much more of a problem. I don't know if you're doing it, but starting out edge planing is much easier.

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I think the long and the short of it is that the plane isn't sharp enough / configured properly.
You're definitely on the right track there. As mentioned, getting the back of the iron perfectly flat is step one - which means you have to have the proper sharpening stuff to do it. It also means you have to have decent stones and develop some sharpening/honing skills.

Quote:
My question was about whether you can get a cheap plane to "work", not about whether you can get it to work as well as the much more expensive counterparts.
Yes, you can get them to "work", but is that really the right question? I firmly believe our skills will develop according to the quality of tools we use. I've learned this through experience getting frustrated like you have not knowing "is it me or the tool". Then only to find out later I DO have the skills but a crummy tool was getting in the way.

Bottom line: Use inferior tools, you will get inferior results, plain and simple.

This is why I really discourage someone starting with cheap tools like this. I'm not saying you need to run out and spend $350 on a plane, but would you spend $150? If so, I fervently recommend the Wood River #4. I believe it is the best buy on the market today. You will have a tool that will definitely "work" with no fiddling or second guessing.

Quote:
I did a lot of research around this, and I actually found a video of a guy endeavoring to see if he could get the plane to work well just as an experiment. He goes through all of the steps necessary to clean up factory defects and get things working in a more predictable fashion. In his case, he wants to use it as a scrub plane, but even still. I've been pulled in other directions and haven't been able to try it, but his results gave me enough information to explore the subject myself.
A scrub plane is a whole different animal so you can't apply what he's doing to a regular bench plane. A scrub is a roughing plane not a smoothing plane, so you don't need a quality tool for this.

I would encourage you to check out several sources on tuning up and sharpening a plane because you need these skills no matter what you do. The guy who mentioned using a file - DON'T DO THAT!!

Someone also mentioned Chris Schwarz. He has an excellent series on tuning up a plane.

Good luck and welcome to the world of hand tool frustrations!!
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