Are non cross cut saws supposed to be this slow? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 12:39 AM Thread Starter
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Are non cross cut saws supposed to be this slow?

I bought a craftsman 16 inch back saw months ago. I haven't had much opportunity to use it so far, but I did notice it cut slowly out of the box.

Today, I used it to cut my first tenon for my workbench in laminated 2x8 stock. Ignore the chisel marks. I had to split one of the cheeks because I let the saw drift off the line. I'm still fumbling around and learning technique.



Holy crap that took a long time. I think I spent 4 hours cutting that single tenon. I have 13 more to go. I'm seriously thinking about punting and buying a dado blade for my table saw at this point.

Is the saw at fault? Can I sharpen it and make it cut like butter? Or is this just par for the course with this kind of hand saw?
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post #2 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 07:08 AM
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I'd try sharpening it: when I bought a Sears dovetail/gent's saw I had to pick through the stack to find one that the plastic blade guard hadn't fallen off of. It may have dulled bumping around with other saws during shipping.
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post #3 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 07:18 AM
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I'd use a bandsaaw

I've made tenon and half laps using my bandsaws and stops on the fence to control the rip and the fence it self to control the shoulders.
A few practice cuts and then very repeatable tenons.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/...on-the-bandsaw


Look in at 4:20 secs:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #4 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
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Maybe a better topic would have been, "how fast can YOU do this with a hand saw?"

I watched that bandsaw video last night. I have a metal cutting bandsaw, but not a woodworking bandsaw. Thus the dado comment.
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post #5 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 08:30 AM
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What's the tooth count?






.
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post #6 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 08:48 AM
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It certainly doesn't take that long when I try handsaws...and the one I'm using most is my grandpas old miter box saw and his old, dull, sash saw that really only does will rip. Both of those are due for sharpenign which I intent to figure out this week, having acquired the file and saw set I need.

When I am using power tools I cut the shoulders on my table saw and then do the bandsaw as cabinetman suggests for the cheeks. It is pretty fast, although you'll want to practice a few times before going to your real parts. The first few I tried was before I had a nice blade and correct tension and did not produce coplaner tennons. I had to correct them with a chisel, rabbet plane and shoulder plane.
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post #7 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 09:16 AM
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I tried this method and it worked well for me..


Best luck.
..Jon..
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post #8 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 09:19 AM
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Yeah, 4 hours on a single tenon is an exercise in futility. I'll be honest, even my dull saws that are due for a sharpening cut faster than that. Are you sure it's a rip tooth? Is it one of those impulse hardened backsaws that you see everywhere now or one that you can sharpen? You might be better off cutting your shoulders and using a chisel to split the tenon out. That pine SHOULD cut fairly quickly. That being said, you may want to use a rip saw with fewer TPI (or PPI depending on what you say) to clear the sawdust and pine sap from the kerf easier. Still shouldn't take 4 hours. Can you post a pic of the saw?
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post #9 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevarthan View Post
I bought a craftsman 16 inch back saw months ago. I haven't had much opportunity to use it so far, but I did notice it cut slowly out of the box.

Today, I used it to cut my first tenon for my workbench in laminated 2x8 stock. Ignore the chisel marks. I had to split one of the cheeks because I let the saw drift off the line. I'm still fumbling around and learning technique.



Holy crap that took a long time. I think I spent 4 hours cutting that single tenon. I have 13 more to go. I'm seriously thinking about punting and buying a dado blade for my table saw at this point.

Is the saw at fault? Can I sharpen it and make it cut like butter? Or is this just par for the course with this kind of hand saw?
I could cut it faster than that with just a hack saw blade, or maybe even a steak knife.

Something is terribly wrong with your saw.

How are you holding the wood? A vise or by hand?

George
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post #10 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
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There are a couple of things that could be going on here.

1) The saw is dull. This one IS going on. The set may also be bad, but that's impossible to tell without looking at it. Get a saw file, clamp the blade between two pieces of 1x2, and sharpen it. It's easy, and shouldn't take long.

2) Your technique may be slowing you down. I recommend marking all the lines all the way around, then cutting the shorter dimension first. Cut diagonally, starting at one corner, and cutting down the lines until you're at the other corner and just shy of the line marking the shoulder of the tenon. Then flip the board over and saw the same line, but on the other side. Finally, cut out the remaining triangle of wood. That means you're always cutting the least amount of board possible.

4) The saw may just be garbage. In all honesty, I wouldn't buy a craftsman hand saw these days. Maybe a rough-cut jobsite saw, but not a joinery saw.
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post #11 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, it's 11 tpi, according to the website.
Definitely not induction hardened. That's why I bought it.
Definitely a rip cut profile.

I'll sharpen it tonight and have a go. I've been watching Paul Sellers' saw sharpening videos to refresh my memory. His saws definitely seem to cut faster than mine, so hopefully it's just extremely dull.
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post #12 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 06:07 PM
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You could cut the shoulders on the table saw using a cross cut sled and/or a good miter gauge, and follow up with the tenon saw for the faces.

Beyond sharpness of the saw that you have, is there a suitable set of the teeth? Perhaps there is too little set.

Greg

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post #13 of 17 Old 10-23-2013, 07:55 PM
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Do yourself a favor and get a different saw. To cut one tenon in softwood like that would be about 5 or so minutes.
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post #14 of 17 Old 10-24-2013, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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I sharpened the saw. Took maybe 30 minutes to sharpen, and maybe an hour to cut the tenon. Would a better saw just have a different tooth pattern? Or is the metal and ability to hold an edge the issue?
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post #15 of 17 Old 10-24-2013, 06:42 AM
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There are too many variables not answered at this point. We need a pic of the saw. As George asked, how are you holding he workpiece? Are you sure this isn't a crosscut? What's your process for sawing the tenon?

As said, even with a dull crosscut saw it shouldn't take an hour in pine. Layout takes the longest but sawing should only be a minute or two.
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-24-2013, 12:21 PM
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If you decide to replace the saws, take a look at my thread "batch order saws."

I will be sending out invoices today and plan on ordering saws Mon morn. If you get with me by tomorrow afternoon I will include what you want in the order.

Jean
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post #17 of 17 Old 10-24-2013, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I did link to the product in the first post. That page includes a photo and details. I'd be happy to provide a photo of the tooth pattern a little later when I have a minute though.
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