Learning Hand Planes - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 80 Old 06-07-2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tools

Unless you get caught up in 'plane collecting' or associated hording behaviors, you can get an array of fantastic working planes for very little cost, if you're willing to do a bit of work and sidestep the cork-sniffing nonsense associated with brand prestige.
Harsh!!
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post #22 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 12:11 AM
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Why all the brand bashing Tool? If I have discretionary income and wish to buy a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane that is pretty much good to go right out of the box (short of sharpening), instead of finding an old Stanley or Bailey, taking the time to refurbish, possibly having to replace a blade, tote, knob or anything else, what do you care?

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #23 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 12:28 AM
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The fellow has a point, why spend money if it doesn't work any better. I started out with old planes and some were able to be restored, mostly with a fair amount of time & effort and some weren't. If you find a good old plane then replacing the iron and chip breaker may be all that is required to have a good user, these tend to have been made prior to WWII. However old poorly made planes don't improve with age and no amount of effort on ones part with bring it up to an acceptable standard. My personal experience has led me to purchase a plane I know to have been well made rather than take a chance trying to restore something which wasn't worth buying when it was new.
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post #24 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 02:16 AM
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Another direction of thought on hand planes!

I found the quality of machine work "actual surface finish" in these two areas make a difference in plane performance.

A. Where the blade contacts the frog surface.

B. Where the frog mounts to the base of the plane, "two surfaces there- bottom of the frog, the base where the frog mounts.

The machining on these 3 surfaces are often rough, damaged, or just not flat.

This problem results in a poor interface of these critical parts, resulting in flex, that causes vibration, shorter edge life, and poor finish planing on the work piece.
The blade will distort, the frog will distort, simply from clamping these bad surfaces together

This happens on many types of machinery, this is the method to correct that problem, that had been used perhaps 2 hundred years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_scraper

Last edited by Benny Blanco; 06-08-2012 at 02:26 AM.
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post #25 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawdustfactory View Post
Why all the brand bashing Tool? If I have discretionary income and wish to buy a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane that is pretty much good to go right out of the box (short of sharpening), instead of finding an old Stanley or Bailey, taking the time to refurbish, possibly having to replace a blade, tote, knob or anything else, what do you care?
I don't care.
Likewise, I wouldn't care if you made a big bonfire in your back yard and just lit your cash on fire. That's your business, but that isn't 'the question' asked by this man.

If you want to buy a $25,000 wristwatch and delude yourself into believing it helps you keep better time that's certainly your business. I couldn't care any less and fully realize that the people who engage in these absurd consumer patterns have elaborately primped narratives to rationalize their superstitions (as well as a large group of 'fellow believers' to provide them with emotional support). Unfortunately, I spent way too many moons working in strategic marketing and brand awareness here in Chicago. My exposure to 'the truth' woke me up.

I've seen the wizard behind the curtain that very, very, very few people have, as far as how 'high end' brands, manufacturers and marketers convince you that their product is better. It amounts to a tiny group of incredibly intelligent and creative people figuring out ways to separate the hoi polloi from their money, usually via leveraging psychological fragilities relating to ones self-worth and how people identify themselves with the status associated with what they own.

There used to be two main brands of mustard, both yellow, costing under $1. In the 1980's, Grey Poupon came along and seized about half of the market share for mustards in the space of a year- a virtually unheard of marketing feat for a food product. They put it in a little glass jar rather than a plastic squeeze bottle, implied it was European even though it was made in California and instead of charging $1 for it, they charged $4. Turns out that even something as ordinary as sandwich mustard can become a vehicle for peoples 'aspirations'.

This is metaphorical for basically every product sold on the 'high end'. The rub is, when it comes to actually plane that wood, swing that golf club, drink that wine, play that guitar or wear those shoes, the 'stratospheric' brands usually have a hard time making a practical case for themselves.

Here's Lie Nielsen's $85 hammer.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1471

I'm sure the people who buy it talk all about how it has such a special 'balance' and 'feels so good in their hands' and is able to strike so 'accurately', too. Nobody's making the case that we should pass a law forbidding them from buying it, but don't wonder why some people shake their heads and chuckle when they do.

Last edited by Tools; 06-08-2012 at 07:03 AM.
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post #26 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 07:23 AM
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I agree with your basic premise; however, here in the U. S. we do have the freedom to make choices.

I believe that 90% of all tools are better than 90% of the people using them; regardless of what hobby or trade we're talking. You also move up the quality scale to a point of diminishing returns. You pay more money, but don't get that much better performance. But it's the consumer's choice.

I drive a 22 year old small car; even though I love cars and driving, I don't want to spend for new or big. It is your choice to drive a Hummer if you wish; just stay out of my way as I blast past you.
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post #27 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Mathewson View Post
Jim,

I have quite a few planes and use them on pretty much every job. If you have any questions you call get ahold of me.
Keith, I really do appreciate your offer my friend, I may take you up on it. I can see why you need all the planes and carving tools, when building tangent handrails, like you do, you use just about everything you have there. Do I see Two Cherries chisels there? Here is an article on a tangent handrail.
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2011/...gent-handrail/
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post #28 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 07:58 AM
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I bet the King's County hammer from TFWW hammers better than your Lie Nielsen. It costs more.

Compairing high end and low end hammers and high end and low end planes is apples to oranges. Having used Groz, Woodriver, Stanley, and Veritas, I can say with confidence that the Veritas works best. It has a higher level of fit and finish and useability. In fact I'm sold on Veritas completely. I use the Stanley and WR but got ridd of the Groz's. There's a lot more to a plane than a hammer. I also hear a lot that the plane is just a jig to hold the blade. Maybe, but not all jigs are equal. That's my opinion. I agree with your setiment that the American consumer is prone to fads.
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post #29 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 08:29 AM
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I don't personally own any LN planes... But I found this very entertaining when I received the link a while ago.



EDIT
IT HAD BEEN A WHILE AND I FORGOT THERE WERE A FEW CHOICE WORDS TOWARDS THE END.

***NOT APPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN, THOSE WITH VIRGIN EARS OR THOSE WHO ENJOY FEMININE COCKTAILS... OR WINE***


Last edited by firemedic; 06-08-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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post #30 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangler View Post
I agree with your basic premise; however, here in the U. S. we do have the freedom to make choices.

I believe that 90% of all tools are better than 90% of the people using them; regardless of what hobby or trade we're talking. You also move up the quality scale to a point of diminishing returns. You pay more money, but don't get that much better performance. But it's the consumer's choice.

I drive a 22 year old small car; even though I love cars and driving, I don't want to spend for new or big. It is your choice to drive a Hummer if you wish; just stay out of my way as I blast past you.
We do have the freedom to make choices (and I agree with everything else you said, as far as worker skill levels very rarely exceeding tool quality levels and driving inexpensive cars)

Still, just because we have the freedom to make choices doesn't mean that some choices aren't stupid (at worst) or silly (at best). Head over to a pawnbrokers shop some time, his place is full of goods that once belonged to people making irrational financial choices.

It's kind of like opinions.
We all have the right to have an opinion, but our right to an opinion doesn't insulate any given opinion from the precepts of reason that govern everything else. When it comes to people making excuses to justify absurd consumer behaviors, it's not the 'opinion' aspect that some folks take issue with, as much as it is the contorted and elaborately nuanced 'reasons' they employ, which don't withstand much logical scrutiny.

Last edited by Tools; 06-08-2012 at 08:53 AM.
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post #31 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 08:53 AM
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Wait a second, Grey Poupon isn't any ordinary yellow mustard!
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post #32 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 09:04 AM
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OK boys and girls...lets get back to the OP's dilemma.

Jim...I suggest you go to HD or Lowes, and buy a 7" block plane, could be a Stanley or a Buck Brothers...one like this, it doesn't really matter. Take that block plane and use it. See what the adjustments do. Practice with it on different woods. Get to know how to handle it. You can read all you want, and that's good for information on planes and which does what, but nothing can replace hands on.

You might think an inexpensive plane like the one mentioned won't get used much. Well, mine does. It's great for some quickie stuff when you have a free hand.

Does the iron keep an edge? Well, I don't wait for it to get dull. Knives, chisels and irons that shave you aren't really that sharp. Take a piece of paper and hold it vertically and just pass the edge down and it should slice like a razor blade.






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post #33 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 09:18 AM
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OK boys and girls...lets get back to the OP's dilemma.


.
+1 Thanks C-Man
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post #34 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tools
I'd suggest before buying planes, first get a copy of "The Handplane Book". It's fantastic and covers pretty much all the ground you'll need from many different angles.

Unless you get caught up in 'plane collecting' or associated hording behaviors, you can get an array of fantastic working planes for very little cost, if you're willing to do a bit of work and sidestep the cork-sniffing nonsense associated with brand prestige.
I got the Stanley #4,5, and 6 for $65. I figured even if they were junk they'd make a nice wall piece.
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post #35 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Cman, I will do just that. I am one step ahead already as I know how to sharpen pretty fair. I will practice and do a lot more reading. I got a question already, the small block plane in your link is a low angle planer, what is the advantage of the low angle over the high angle plane or is there an advantage?

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post #36 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jiju1943 View Post
Thanks Cman, I will do just that. I am one step ahead already as I know how to sharpen pretty fair. I will practice and do a lot more reading. I got a question already, the small block plane in your link is a low angle planer, what is the advantage of the low angle over the high angle plane or is there an advantage?
The lower angle is a less of an aggressive angle (not as steep). It lays flatter and works better on end grain. It's a good plane to have, and so would be an ordinary block plane.




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Last edited by cabinetman; 06-08-2012 at 03:05 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #37 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 12:54 PM
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Wait a second, Grey Poupon isn't any ordinary yellow mustard!
+1 I'm a huge mustard fan and to compare these two is just wrong! And if Grey Poupon had a cork I'd probably smell it...because it would be odd for mustard to have a cork.

Quote:
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Jim...I suggest you go to HD or Lowes, and buy a 7" block plane, could be a Stanley or a Buck Brothers...one like this, it doesn't really matter.
I have one of these Stanleys. One of the first hand tools I bought when moving into our house. You will at least need to lap the sole since they tend to be pretty bad. Start aggressive, like with 100 grit to get it flat. Then progress up to 220, or more if you are inclined.
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post #38 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 06:24 PM
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Without wanting to offend those who have advocated starting with a very inexpensive plane, I would suggest at least a middle of the price or a higher price plane to start. If you don't know how a well tuned plane should work how will you know what to do with a cheap plane? Jim if you want to start with a couple of cheap users I'll send you these 3 for free, just pay the cost of shipping.

Here are a couple of cheap planes which I've found to work very well.
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post #39 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 06:27 PM
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Here are a couple of pics which most finish carpenters might want to consider having onsite
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post #40 of 80 Old 06-08-2012, 06:29 PM
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And here are some planes I use for making handrails and fittings.


http://www.planemaker.com/products.html
The hollows & rounds are certainly more expensive than a hobbyist can justify, let the bashing begin...
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Last edited by Keith Mathewson; 06-08-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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