Exterior Basement Door - best way to glue - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

 
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post #1 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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Exterior Basement Door - best way to glue

I have an entrance into my basement from my back patio we use it fairly regularly, but not daily. In order to keep snow/rain out (and to maximize the sq footage of a very small backyard), I've built a new door to cover the entrance.

I used 3/4" plywood as underlayment...with 1" cedar shiplapped on top. Once it is finished and protected, I'll add gas shocks below to help with easy opening/closing.

My question: what's the best way to attach the cedar to the plywood? I was planning on using construction adhesive + screws from below every 6" or so.

My only concern is how will the weather affect this? We see a lot of freeze / thaw cycles (I live in Colorado) ...we get a lot of sun....and it will have moisture on top.

My thought was that the shiplap might help keep things tighter...and then the adhesive + screws will lock it in.


Any thoughts? Thanks everyone!
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post #2 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 05:14 PM
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I think you would be better off making a frame out of cedar and put the cedar boards over the top. Anytime you cover one side of a sheet of plywood it tends to make it warp.
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post #3 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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I want to be sure we can walk on top of the door, though. With a cedar frame (and without the plywood), is this possible? Or I should probably ask, how would you suggest doing that?

Thanks!!
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post #4 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 06:21 PM
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Shiplap is of no value in your application. It is meant to be used on vertical(or near vertical) walls or ships sides. That is how/why it is so designed.

One inch cedar planks over a sturdy 2x4 cedar frame should be strong enough to walk on. I am guessing your trap door is about 40"x40". An X frame support in the middle should be sufficient.

Does it matter if water gets through the door into the space below it?

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post #5 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks George!!!

The door size is actually 4' x 7'. It doesn't need to be completely waterproofed, some moisture is fine. But ideally not much.
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post #6 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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I can always trim off the ship lap if that's actually detrimental to the cause, too.
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post #7 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 06:51 PM
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Your planned method of attachment seems pretty sound. I don't know that the construction adhesive would hold, it's always seemed rather brittle when cured to me so it'd be interesting to see how it holds up to seasonal movement, but even if it fails the screws will hold

I'd be more inclined to go Steve's route though. I've never seen a piece of plywood last very long outdoors. Marine grade stuff would probably be fine, but I still hate plywood

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post #8 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Your planned method of attachment seems pretty sound. I don't know that the construction adhesive would hold, it's always seemed rather brittle when cured to me so it'd be interesting to see how it holds up to seasonal movement, but even if it fails the screws will hold

I'd be more inclined to go Steve's route though. I've never seen a piece of plywood last very long outdoors. Marine grade stuff would probably be fine, but I still hate plywood


Thanks Epicfail!!! Do you think the plywood will fail even though it's largely covered by the cedar? And I was going to do some type of protective coat on the underside. Maybe paint or maybe something stronger.
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post #9 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 07:16 PM
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If you used pressure treated plywood or marine grade plywood it would hold up to the elements as well as the cedar you are applying over it. What concerned me is if it wasn't fastened to a sturdy frame the plywood would curl up in time. I think it would take a heavier frame to prevent the plywood from warping than if you didn't have the plywood at all. What you have for a door is very similar to a section of fence like what you see at the box stores. You could easily take one of those sections of fence and lay it of 4 cinder blocks and jump up and down on it without breaking it. The only framework those have is a 2x4 at the top and bottom of the fence. It wouldn't take much more framework to make a nice door.
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post #10 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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I should have probably included this photo of the 8" lip it will sit on, on 3 sides.

Does that change any opinions by chance?

Thanks again, all!
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post #11 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 10:15 PM
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If you were making the door with a frame and hinging it then that would make a difference. Since you have it backed with plywood it doesn't hurt a thing. It would work just like that or you could mount hinges to it.
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post #12 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I'd like to hinge it...just not really sure where to place them. :/ Or which type of hinges would work best for something like this

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post #13 of 18 Old 01-19-2017, 11:41 PM
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I think I would use a strap hinge and mount the hinge directly to the brick.
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post #14 of 18 Old 01-20-2017, 09:18 AM
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from the 2nd pic - it looks like all of the (rain snow) water on top of the door is going to be trapped to fall inside, no way to run off/out. plan for expansion and contraction so that when it swells you can still open the door.
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post #15 of 18 Old 01-20-2017, 12:01 PM
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Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPa View Post
from the 2nd pic - it looks like all of the (rain snow) water on top of the door is going to be trapped to fall inside, no way to run off/out. plan for expansion and contraction so that when it swells you can still open the door.

Most doors of that type have a raised curb all around and are slanted to allow the water to drain off. Yours is more like a boat hatch. The issue will be ... the snow/water will freeze and "lock" the door shut until it thaws. You have to get rid of the water around the opening. I know that you would like it to be flush to prevent a trip hazard, but that may be a real negative.

Next issue is whether/how to glue it. It wouldn't glue it at all, just use deck screws. I would put a vapor barrier over the plywood like roofing paper or water and ice and then screw the boards down leaving 1/8" gaps which will get filled with caulking. Seal the bottoms of the boards before installing them.

This will be heavy and unlike most of these basement doors you won't have a 2 piece door with a seam in the center. That may be a better solution, I donno? It would be lighter per door for certain.
You can use a steel frame underneath for reinforcement.... 1 1/2" angle. I don't think it just as simple as making a "door" and hinging it at the rear, but I could be wrong. Do some additional research on this type of enclosure and see what others have done.

http://www.gordoncelladoor.com/

http://cellardoors.com/basement-egress/

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specfic. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo

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post #16 of 18 Old 01-20-2017, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Most doors of that type have a raised curb all around and are slanted to allow the water to drain off. Yours is more like a boat hatch. The issue will be ... the snow/water will freeze and "lock" the door shut until it thaws. You have to get rid of the water around the opening. I know that you would like it to be flush to prevent a trip hazard, but that may be a real negative.

Next issue is whether/how to glue it. It wouldn't glue it at all, just use deck screws. I would put a vapor barrier over the plywood like roofing paper or water and ice and then screw the boards down leaving 1/8" gaps which will get filled with caulking. Seal the bottoms of the boards before installing them.

This will be heavy and unlike most of these basement doors you won't have a 2 piece door with a seam in the center. That may be a better solution, I donno? It would be lighter per door for certain.
You can use a steel frame underneath for reinforcement.... 1 1/2" angle. I don't think it just as simple as making a "door" and hinging it at the rear, but I could be wrong. Do some additional research on this type of enclosure and see what others have done.

http://www.gordoncelladoor.com/

http://cellardoors.com/basement-egress/

Woodnthings...thank you very much!

As a follow up:

yes, keeping things flush are a priority b/c our backyard is so small (< 300 sq ft)...so we need to maximize every inch. While putting it on a curb or having it raised would be helpful for water, we've chosen not to go that route.

We do have a slight pitch to the door to help with runoff, but not much. When we do get snow/rain...it rarely lasts long (living in CO and being south facing, it melts very quickly).

I'm not worried about the weight of the door. Heavy is ok with me we had it previously hinged (+ gas shocks) and it opened right up. And it needs to be sturdy enough to walk on especially with the little kids that like to run over it.

So, when you say to leave a 1/8" gap and caulk the gaps...is that to help with contraction / expansion?

If the cedar boards were butted up against each other (yet still had at least 1/8" gap on the sides)...do you think it would buckle with the weather changes?


Many thanks!
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post #17 of 18 Old 02-17-2017, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Hello all:

Here's an update. Based on cumulative advice, I ended up going a slightly different route. I attached the cedar planks across a metal hinged frame. This reduced the weight and made a stronger structure I believe. (see photos).

One question: I left about 1/8" gap between each cedar board to allow for contraction / expansion. Can anyone else speak into whether or not caulking between the boards is a good idea? (That would be nice b/c it would prevent water from coming in...but not sure how that affects contraction / expansion). If caulk is recommended, what kind would you suggest?


Thanks all!
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post #18 of 18 Old 02-17-2017, 01:46 PM
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Now that you have it assembled it's a little late to think about caulking between. You might have run a bead of rubberized caulk between the boards. The outer portion would have had some kind of lip and a channel with a drain to run the water away from there. Still where it's located I don't think you could eliminate water completely without putting a roof over the patio.
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