bbwood

I just started building some furniture for my new house and have some questions/need some help with finishing.

I am currently working on a dining room table and playing around with many sample pieces. I am using Poplar to keep cost and weight down. I am using a water-based espresso stain from general finishes and going over that with the general finishes arm-r-seal.

The first problem I have been having is the grain lifting after applying the stain. I tried spraying the piece down with water, letting it dry, then finish sanding but that doesn't seem to do much. Then I tried staining, then sanding, and then staining again. That seems to work the best.

Then the second problem when I apply the arm-r-seal, the grain seems to lift again slightly with the 1st and 2nd coats of arm-r-seal.

Then the 3rd problem, I need to apply about 3 coats of arm-r-seal before I can really start buffing out the arm-r-seal using #0000 steel wool or 320 sandpaper, or it seems like im hitting the wood still. I have 1 sample piece that has 8 coats of arm-r-seal on it to acheive the look I am going for, an ultra smooth finish.

Finally the 4th problem, the piece with 8 coats on it has become virtually black in color and has no wood grain. It's basically if the piece was painted with black enamel and buffed out.

SO...

Does anyone have any tips, ideas, suggestions... Anything, that might help me out? What are the professionals using to finish cabinets and furniture?

I would ultimately like to have my furniture be a very dark brown (espresso) color. I would like to see the wood grain in the wood, and have a smooth durable finish.



Thanks,
Bill

GeorgeC

Hopefully someone else can give you a better answer.

My experience with popular is that it is very difficult(sometimes impossible) to stain and get it to look good. I would never use popular any place that it was going to show if it was not going to be painted.

Maybe someone else on here knows how to work with popular and get it to work well with stain.

George

bradnailer

I seldom use water based products. My solution would be to use oil based stains and finishes.

handy71839

I have had "some" success with staining poplar by first sealling with a coat of shellac, light sanding with 220 grit sandpaper, applying an alcohol based wood dye (I use Transtint) and then 3-4 coats of a wipe on poly. This works best if there is little or no sapwood.

Good luck.

clockdaddy

Bill,

The first problem I have been having is the grain lifting after applying the stain.
Wood grain will always lift when any kind of liquid is put on it, particularly water based stains and finishes.
Imagine a sponge getting a bit of water wiped on on surface. That surface will expand slightly. Wood does essentially the same thing. Cabinet grade lumber will have a moisture content of around 8%. Any liqiud will lift the grain. How much the grain will raise depends on the type liquid and the type of wood.

Then the second problem when I apply the arm-r-seal, the grain seems to lift again slightly with the 1st and 2nd coats of arm-r-seal.

If you are sanding between coats ( as you should be) the tips of the wood fibers do expand a bit, however most of the roughness you feel is the finish following the natural contour of the wood surface. Since the grain is not perfectly level, each of the first several coats will dry a bit rough. This is the reason you must sand between every coat of finish.

the 3rd problem, I need to apply about 3 coats of arm-r-seal before I can really start buffing out the arm-r-seal using #0000 steel wool or 320 sandpaper, or it seems like im hitting the wood still.

This has a lot to do with the solid content of the finish. If you were to mix a gallon of water with a pound of sugar and pour it on the floor, you'd end up woth a rather thick layer of sticky gooh when it dried.
Likewise, if you mixed that same one pound of sugar with a fifty five gallon drum of water and poured it on the floor and let it dry, you will have a very small amount of stickyness on the surface.
Manufacturers do essentially the same thing with finishes. The thinner the viscosity of the solution the more solvent it has. When you apply the finish to the wood, the solvents evaporate and what is left is your actual layer of finish.
While the manufacturer is cutting their production cost, they are actually doing you a favor by thinning the finish. All fine finished furnishings get that way by applying thin coats of finish and sanding between coats just enough to get a slick feel to the surface of the wood.

the 4th problem, the piece with 8 coats on it has become virtually black in color and has no wood grain.

You didn't indicate if you are using a crystal clear finish or a tinted product.
If the finish is clear or has a slight amber color, it is not unusual for a good finish to have anywhere from 12 to 25 coats depending on the type of wood and the finish desired.
If you are putting only 8 coats and the appearance is virtually black, the finish is not clear and will darken the appearance with each coat applied. The darkness isn't in the wood, it's in the finish. A tinted finish is generally used to even up the wood coloring and make the boards seem more uniform in color. Beyond that, you're essentially painting the wood with a layer of color and eventually the finish will be opaqued.

I hope this sheds a little light on what's happening!

CD

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cusingeorge

Poplar does not have strong grain definition, therefore, is mostly used in primed and painted finishing systems.

The only way I am sure of to get any kind of grain definition is to thin the stain and apply a lighter shade to the wood (maybe 50/50).

After that mixing a small amount of the stain with the seal coat and one or two of the topcoats will help get you to the color you want, while not having all the color on the wood where the poplar's tight grain will soak it up as much as its open grain will.

The finish simply sounds like it has a low volume solids content, not a bad thing, but means that you have to be careful when you sand coats to keep from "cutting" an edge or sanding through the stain. Even the finest steel wool (not recommended for water based finishing) and sandpaper can cut the film and remove the stain if you are not careful.

I am not very familiar with the Armor-Seal, but most water-based finishes can be applied one coat after another if you allow the coats to dry only "past tacky", meaning that most of the solvents have evaporated and you can lightly touch it without printing. Only apply 2-3 coats in this manner and allow overnight dry at a good temperature (above 70 F). Scuff with 400 grit and do it again.

You should be able to get a look that has some depth, but you should not try for the thick, bartop look, those require a different coating system.

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