bilk

Hi, I am completing a reconstruction of an entry into a building that is 110 years old. It is a 10' door with sidelights and a transom. Some of the wood is the original fir used at the time of construction, some is new oak and some is poplar (all due to time and monetary constraints in getting detail moldings made from hard woods).

My question is what needs to be done to get everything to look reasonably uniform when staining and then finishing? I know everything needs to be treated with a pre-stain, but are there specific techniques and other products that will aid in getting a uniform appearance once complete? I plan on applying the final clear finish with an airbrush. Also are there any products, specifically, that I should use/stay away from? This will obviously be exposed to weather in the NE.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

GeorgeC

Do you mean by uniform that all would be the same color?

G

firehawkmph

Bilk,
Take some scraps of each of the wood species and try some stain on each one. You may have to use three different color stains to get close. At that point you can also tint the finish you are going to apply and even things up with that. It will probably take a bit of fiddling around. Depends on how close you want everything to end up. Take your time.
Mike Hawkins

bilk

Hi George. Yes. I am thinking that I need to apply a wipe on stain and then apply a "glaze" or tinted poly of some sort and then apply the final finish, to give all of the various woods a uniform color and appearance. I was wondering if there is some treatment besides the pre-stain that should be applied.

Also, are there products that will work better than another in terms of weather resistance? One of the guys that works for me suggests varnish as the protective coat. I thought varnish didn't hold up well to water and weather.

This door/entry will never get direct sun as it faces north. However it will see rain and snow. Thanks for you help.
Bill

jerry

You could bleach the wood and then use a dye to get the color close,but the grains certainly won't match.

Jerry

bilk

I realize the grains won't match, but will the glaze somewhat mask that? What I am really concerned with is the poplar and how it takes the stain and the weatherproofing of everything. I read here some don't like spar varnish, but Cabot seems to recommend this. I also thought I read somewhere about pre-treating softer woods to give them a temper of sorts to make them harder. Is this possible and what products are used for that?

jerry

The only product I know of that will do as you describe is paint. If you can't use the proper wood you will have to accept the results.

Jerry

mainzy

M.L.Campell makes a product called amaizing stain It's a spray on stain. We used it on birch panels because they tend to blotch.
This stuff only penitrates a little the rest just lies on the surface.

The only other thing I can think of is a gell stain.You could try to brush it on and not wipe it off. A gel stain will also lay on the surface.

The only problem is it will obscure the grain some.

Shamus

As mentioned, trial pcs of scrap wood. Pre-stain to allow for a more even absorbation on all wood. And, don't forget to write down what you did to each scrap piece your testing. Nothing worse than getting it just right and forgetting what you used. (Voice of experience).
I do a bunch of this on a routine basis. There is no science to it, mostly just patience and a bit of luck.
Any finish you use will come off regardless of the doors exposure to sun. North is better but if it gets weather and is wet often, that finish will fail too.

I like to mix varing amounts of different stains (Minwax) to get the color I'm after. Just a measured 1/4 oz of this and a 1/2 oz of that, mix well and apply. I've used as many as 4 stains mixed to match color. But color only, the grain as said above will always be a contrast and not necessarily a good looking contrast.

A tinted poly isn't a bad idea for a finish, again, the tint will change the color of each stain. Do a test. Given the wood types your working with you should consider a solid color. I know thats not what your after but my experience is there is just too much variation in those wood grains to get it looking ok, again, my ol 2¢ here so don't rule out anything until you've tried it.

Also wanted to say that M.L. Campbell finishes seem to hold up the best here in the northeast, Ohio, PA. Do a search for their product and where to buy.

Tony B

but I think you are wasting your time. Assume you are able to get the same color and tone with stain, the different woods - fir, oak and poplar all have dramatically different grain patterns. When you are done the wood may end up so dark in trying to 'levelize' the colors that you may be best off just painting it. The other choice is a faux oak finish.
I do wish you luck and I hope I am wrong.

__________________
Tony B

http://www.thetexaswoodworks.com

bilk

Well this is the subject I am dealing with. I just completed the three lower panels. All f the glass is safety glass with a 1 1/4" bevel. I have decided to go with a dark stain as it would hide the variances in grain. I'll post picks of the finished product. Oh I guess I should point out - the structure is original as are the two side light panels, but everything else has been replaced. The trim moldings are poplar, the door is white oak and the jambs are clear pine. I also reconstructed the round brick molding (not installed for these pics). I'm hopeful the results will be desirable. If not I can always paint it :)

clockdaddy

bilk,
The kitchen cabinet industry has used spray on stains for decades to even the color of different species or to fake a type of wood to look like another (i.e. poplar or alder stained to look cherry).
This is a simple process that results in a great look.
It's best to use a fast drying stain. With today's environmental laws and the sue conscious public, the easiest, safest, is a water based stain. The first coat of stain should be applied with either an air syphon or gravity fed spray gun, HVLP spray unit or even an aresol spray container that is made for adding your stain to.
Water based stain is comprised of grainulated earth colors mixed in water or a mix of water and denatured alcohol. Because the color, when applied, has an opaquing effect and will hide wood grain completely if enough is sprayed on. The key to the whole process is layering you your finishing coats so your color can be adjusted as you proceed with the finishwork.
Step 1 - After deternining the color you want to use, mix the color water based stain with either water or denatured alcohol to the consistancy of muddy water. If you pour the stain in a clear quart jar there should be just enough color to prohibit seeing through the mixture...no more.
Step 2 - Fill your spray unit with the stain and proceed to spray an even (not real wet) coat over the entire surface of your wood project. This coat will dry normally in 10 to 30 minutes depending upon the humidity. When dry, spray a second coat over the entire surface. This time a little heavier that the first. As you spray, you will be able to see the evenness of the color. Don'r spray so much that you are "coloring" the wood with too much stain.
Step 3 - Being an exterior wood surface, I'd recommend a marine varnish. It is more expensive than polyurethane and regular varnishes but it is much longer lasting in the ultra violet bombardment of the sun'd rays. Thin the varnish with about 25% mineral spirits. Apply this to your woodwork using your spray unit and thin even coats. I'd recommend 3 thin wet coats with each succesive coat applied after the previous coat has gotten rather tacky. All three coats can be applied in about three to six hours depending on the heat and humidity. Allow this to dry until the next day.
Step 4 - Using 300 grit garnet sandpaper, lightly sand the entire surface just enough to make it "feel" smooth. Be very careful on corners and molded areas not to sand through the color. After the entire project is sanded, wipe it down using a t-shirt lightly dampened with mineral spirits. Note as you go along any lighter areas that you may choose to darken. Clean corners and crevaces out using a clean, dry brush.
Step 5 - Apply an additional coat of stain to the woodwork in the light areas only. All you're doing is evening the color to have the overall same appearance. When satisfied, spray another coat of finish ( two coats are even better).
Step 6 - Once again lightly sand the entire project and using straight finish either spray or brush two final coats.

If your customer wants a satin finish, it's best to steer them away from it. Satin finish has additives (called silicates) that dulls the shine but the sun's rays will turn a milkish color and cause the finish to start pealing.
Stay away from spray can stains. They are generally made using dye stains that will quickly bleach with the sun's rays.The water based stain will no bleach out because it is actually ground up particles.

Any questions?? Write back or PM me. I'll be glad to help.

CD

bilk

Hi CD. Thanks for your advice. I hadn't thought of using water based for any of the applications. I did feel that I would have to use some form of "glazing" to accomplish a cohesive appearance. I will look into the water based stains and dyes. I believe MinWax makes them in a pretty good range of colors. Oh this isn't for a customer. That entrance is on a building I own in Brooklyn. I did a full gut renovation of the interior. The building was damaged by fire in the early 80s and had no redeeming qualities from the original construction. This pic is the before. You'll notice I also cleaned the brick of the paint that covered the beautiful brick and stone. It's been a long 18 months, but the finished product is receiving accolades from many. The entrance is the last piece of the puzzle. I hope I don't screw it up :)

clockdaddy

You've really had your hands full! The results speak for themselves (beautiful) and your patience (not to mention the investment) is certainly paying off.
You're not going to "screw-up" with the finishing. Just take each step slow and easy. When in doubt...slow down!!
I strongly suggest to stay with the waterbased colors. Oil based colors and tinted finishes use a lot of dyes. The dye will bleach out rather quickly in the suns' rays.
By the way, when you spray on stain, never wipe it unless you absolutely have to. When spraying a stain, you're putting the color on the wood, not in the wood like a dye or a wipe stain. If you wipe the sprayed on stain, it will leave more particulates in the grain of the wood (even birch!) and it will amplify the grain. If you have to wipe the area, spray over it afterwards to with stain to blend the area.
Bilk, you'll do just fine. After everything else you've done, this'll be a walk in the park!!
CD

bilk

Well I hope I don't let you down. And, since you asked :) Here are a few pics of the interior. I added an additional floor and underpinned the foundation to get an 8'-6" ceiling height in the cellar. It's four units with two being duplexed with the floor above. Every stick, nail and screw, including all of the services and mechanicals, the interior stairs, floors, windows and doors are new. Thanks again and I will post pics of the final results.

clockdaddy

With the quality of work you did to the rest of the place, the front entry will be a snap!

Everything looks great!!!

CD

bilk

Hi CD. Thanks for posting your helpful suggestions and for your kind words of praise. This project has taken a bit longer than I anticipated because of the details, but it's been a labor of love.

I have to tell you I didn't go with the water based stain. I practiced with it and I just couldn't get the look I am after. I thought it obscured the wood grain and texture too much. I am much more comfortable with wiping stains which is what I started to lay down today. I am not using it in traditional fashion. I semi-sealed the wood with sanding sealer thinned two to one. After sanding I used my mix of colors to apply a heavy glaze coat and allowed that to sit until almost dry but still tacky. I then took it down with mineral spirits on a rag. I am close to the look I was after. It is uniform in color and tone on all of the various wood species. I gave the finish a somewhat distressed look by accentuating the lows and highs of the various molding profiles and raised panels. It looks old and new all at once.

I was wondering, have you ever used automotive finishes on exterior projects? I thought I might give this a try. I'm sure I would need to apply some form of compatible sealer prior to the finishing coats of clear. Any thoughts?

clockdaddy

Hey bilk!!
There ya go!!! Playing around with techniques and various products is exactly what has to be done to achieve different appearances!
Without realizing it you've already jumped to finishing 201!!

I have used automotive finishes including Lacquer, enamel, acrylics, and emeron (spelling??). Of all the finishes I liked the acrylic enamel finish best for dry time, layout on wood, and ease of use.
While I never had any problem (that I know of!!), I've always been concerned about the fracturing of the finish due to expansion and contraction of the wood.
Wood finishes have plastisizers (spelling, again!!??) or additives put into the finish to allow the finish to expand and contract with the wood with changes in temperatures. After an extended period, the plastisizers become brittle due to the ultra violet bombardment from the sun. You've seen the result of this on old furniture that has a crazed or "shattered" look to the old finish.
One of the experiences I've had was with a major entertainment company that was constantly having to redo their wood sitting benches outside. No matter what type of finish applied, refinishing was necessary every six months due to the extreme damage of sunlight exposure. With automotive grade, furniture grade catalyzed finishes, as well as standard exterior wood finishes, the standard exterior finishes outlasted most of the others. The real differences came into play with removing the finishes. The catalyzed finishes were extremely difficult to remove, due to the hardness of the finishes. While not as difficult, other automotive grade finishes presented a bit less difficulty. The standard exterior oil based urethane finish came off fairly easy.

Well, there ya are!! My experience in 100 words or less!!
I personally would stick with urethane (high gloss) and would not put on more than three coats...MAX!. Sand between coats with 280-320 grit garnet sandpaper. Sand the surface only enough to knock off the roughness. Recoat every 24 hours but no longer than 48 hours apart. Urethane will not bond properly after that period.

IF..IF..IF
When applying the finish should you start to notice the finish forming little circles or "small craters" you must put another additive in the finish. These small disfigurements are called "fisheye" and is caused due to contamination in the wood. Stop by an automotive paint supplier and pick up some "Smoothie" or any other "fisheye eliminator" they may sell. Add this, according to the instructions, to the finish and the areas will flow to a smooth surface with each subsequent coat!

Let me know how it goes!

CD

__________________
Life has a way of forcing wisdom upon us!

bilk

Well here's the door with the glazing stain and shading. I am not going to give it it's final coloring and finish until I get the frame and archway to the same state which I started today. This is what I achieved on Tuesday. The door is three species and all look to be fairly uniform so far. I hope the whole thing comes together. I'm pretty happy with the results so far.

clockdaddy

That looks excellent, bilk! You've added enough color to even up the different woods yet bring out the grain! I wish a few of my employees had half the skill you have!!
Hang in there!! The entry will look great when you're finished!!

CD

__________________
Life has a way of forcing wisdom upon us!