Stain won't take - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

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post #1 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Stain won't take

Hello All, I am staining walnut ply and i have two coats of Red Mahogany on that were applied yesterday eight hours apart and now i am putting on a coat of Jacobean 24houes later to make it darker.

I did some samples last week and did all three coats in one day six hours apart and had no problems. It looked great. I am using the same stain now as i did with the sample.

The problem i am having is that the last coat is not penetrating. I applied a wet coat and let stand for 20min with no dry spots showing i started to wipe it off and it didn't darken at all lol. All 60 square feet of ply looks the same with no penetration.

Can all the pores in the wood be sealed from it being to long? Could the pores be filled from the first two coats?

Any help will be much appreciated, Thanks.
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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I did use a wood conditioner because all the panels are eight feet long and i didn't want to have and color tone differences.
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post #3 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hispeedguy View Post
I did use a wood conditioner because all the panels are eight feet long and i didn't want to have and color tone differences.
salutations highspeed, what type of conditiner did you use, Glue, a name brand - bentonite? or ther?
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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it's Minwax conditioner and Minwax stain. It must be re-coated within two hours which i did and then put a second coat of stain on the same day.
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hispeedguy View Post
it's Minwax conditioner and Minwax stain. It must be re-coated within two hours which i did and then put a second coat of stain on the same day.
Let me make sure i have this straight, you applied the conditioner then within the given two hour widow you applied it again? or do you mean you applied the conditioner and then stained within the 2 hr. window and then applied a second coat of stain later on?
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post #6 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry ill make this easier to understand.. :)
#1 applied conditioner
#2 waited 30 min, then first coat of stain
#3 waited 8 hours and second coat of the same stain
#4 waited 24 hours and third coat of different color of stain went on
The #4 step is the stain that's not penetrating.
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post #7 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hispeedguy View Post
Sorry ill make this easier to understand.. :)
#1 applied conditioner
#2 waited 30 min, then first coat of stain
#3 waited 8 hours and second coat of the same stain
#4 waited 24 hours and third coat of different color of stain went on
The #4 step is the stain that's not penetrating.
Thanks, well your main problem is that the minwax stain has about 5% or so poly in it, so waiting to long allows the poly to become hard and creates a barrier that acts like a clear poly would, thus not allowing easy penetration, the first two were close enough that it didn't have time to reach that stage and your begginig samples being done in 6 hours even more so.

When ever you make samples and want the project itself to turn out as they do, you must follow the same schedule you did for them ok?Now to get the same resaults you will have to remove what you have done and resand and start from scratch unfortunately, that is unless someone else has had this happen and replys back to what they may have done ok?

Hard lesson but a good teacher.

Chemmy
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post #8 of 21 Old 02-24-2012, 11:43 PM
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I agree with Chemmy. Take it back down.

Harrison, at your service!
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post #9 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 12:45 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Chemmy i understand now what went wrong. Its veneer and i don't know how easy it will be to sand down but i will give it a try.. thanks again..
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 01:14 AM
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Thanks Chemmy i understand now what went wrong. Its veneer and i don't know how easy it will be to sand down but i will give it a try.. thanks again..
sorry highspeed, i wish there was a better way, you may be alble to get most of it off with lacquer
thinner before you sand at least give a small section a shot and see ok? put some thinner on and let set for several minutes and scrub it off wit steel wool 4/0 it should remove alot of it if its not to old and then clean up with more thinner and a rag, let dry and then sand ok?

Last edited by chemmy; 02-25-2012 at 01:17 AM.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 07:34 AM
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I wouldn't use lacquer thinner. It will dissolve the stain into the veneer. A chemical stripper would be my choice. You may choose your staining regimen differently eliminating applications. If you can spray, you can tone in the color without depending on penetration.






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post #12 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 08:47 AM
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The first application of stains do 90% of the coloring. A second application will slightly enhance the color but there won't be much penetration since the first application already did that. If you want a darker or different color than what is available, you can mix two or more colors before applying. Applying more than two coats on won't work that well and the extra applications may lift since they can't penetrate into the wood. All applications should be wiped off completely, you don't want to leave a film of stain on the work. Minwax does have a sealer in it, on the can, it's called "wood finish" although it doesn't offer much in the way of protection. It just makes additional coats less likely to do anything. This is even more the case when you have used a conditioner since that is also a sealer.
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post #13 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 01:25 PM
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Before you start any sanding, you can frequently get a coat of stain applied over a prior coat by lightly sanding the dried prior coat with 220 paper sanding in the direction of the grain. This will open up the resin (varnish) coat that is sealing the surface of the wood. Then apply your third color. See if that gets you where you want to be.

Be very careful with any sanding. Today's veneers are paper thin and it's easy to sand through the veneer.

For the future, if you want to mix Minwax Wood Finish colors, do it before you apply any stain. You will end up with a better job. Also, the more coats of stain you apply the more opaque pigments you are applying. This will begin to obscure the grain or figure in the wood.

Howie..........
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post #14 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 02:58 PM
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lacquer does not "dissolve " pigmented stain, at most it would possibly make the dye portion go deeper into the wood. if that's the case pool chlorine will remove most of the dye. then when dried it can be sanded pretty well back to an uncolored state. That is if the dye is water soluble, if not then use a mix of lacquer thinner or butyl acetate mixed with mek or diacetone alcohol [sherwin wiliams] to rid most of the oil dye.
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post #15 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chemmy View Post
lacquer does not "dissolve " pigmented stain, at most it would possibly make the dye portion go deeper into the wood.
How does "lacquer" figure into this?






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post #16 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 04:42 PM
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How does "lacquer" figure into this?









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Excuse me LT [lacquer thinner/ solvents/ diluents
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post #17 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 04:54 PM
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Excuse me LT [lacquer thinner/ solvents/ diluents
From my use, lacquer thinner will dissolve/dilute most anything, including pigmented stain.





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post #18 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 05:04 PM
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From my use, lacquer thinner will dissolve/dilute most anything, including pigmented stain.








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Ahh... i see the confusion then, i'm not talking of removing diluting the stain base, [resin/vehicle/etc.] I'm just saying that solvents do not "dissolve" [turn the pigment [s] into soluble matter] when used to remove a coating or stain base, etc.. it does not change the pigment nor can, into a smaller molecule such as that of a dye.
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post #19 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 05:17 PM
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Ahh... i see the confusion then, i'm not talking of removing diluting the stain base, [resin/vehicle/etc.] I'm just saying that solvents do not "dissolve" [turn the pigment [s] into soluble matter] when used to remove a coating or stain base, etc.. it does not change the pigment nor can, into a smaller molecule such as that of a dye.
I'm not confused. If you don't think a solvent (lacquer thinner) won't dissolve into a solution pigmented oil base stain, try the experiment for yourself.

Take a small can of pigmented oil base stain (because its cheaper than a large can), and stir it up, leave the lid off, and let it dry out hard as a rock. Then add lacquer thinner, and tell me what happens.






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post #20 of 21 Old 02-25-2012, 07:16 PM
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I'm not confused. If you don't think a solvent (lacquer thinner) won't dissolve into a solution pigmented oil base stain, try the experiment for yourself.

Take a small can of pigmented oil base stain (because its cheaper than a large can), and stir it up, leave the lid off, and let it dry out hard as a rock. Then add lacquer thinner, and tell me what happens.








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C'man i get what your saying my mistake is not narrowing down what i was implying - i used the term pigment "stain", instead of just "pigment" what I'm meaning is that solvents will not dissolve pigments, not that it will not dissolve or soften the stain's incorporated resin poly when dried and needed to remove.

You may have unintentionally made as similar mistake in wording it as you did - "I wouldn't use lacquer thinner. It will ""dissolve" the stain"" into the veneer" i took that to mean you were saying it would dissolve the "pigment"/ color/ not a reffernce to the binder part of the clear polymer ok?
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