Pre Cat Lacquer Questions ??? - Woodworking Talk

Tom5151 · 10-05-2009, 12:39 PM

Hello,

I am building kitchen cabinets for the first time ever. Also for the first time ever I am going to be spraying on the finish. I am planning on getting the HVLP system that Rockler sells, but had a question about the finish.

My plan is to use a pre-cat lacquer. Who makes a really good pre-cat lacquer? I am not looking for the best but something good that will wear well. Do any of the big box stores carry anything worth using? I’ve seen some DEFT product. Is that good? I plan on at least one or two coats of sanding sealer and then the lacquer finish. Also what is a proper thinning ratio for pre-cat lacquer being used with an HVLP system?

Thanks
Tom

Tom5151 · 10-06-2009, 12:08 PM

hmmmmm....

okay let me ask this question instead....

Someone actually recommended the pre-cat lacquer as being a good finish for kitchen cabinets....

would you all agree?

I typically use polyurethane for finishing but thought i would try the lacquer based on his recommendation.

Should i just stick with a poly urethane finish? if so what is best for a kitchen cabinet application? Water or oil based?

Thanks.

JW_in_Indy · 10-06-2009, 03:27 PM

I would suggest you check with the Pro's at a "commercial" Sherwin Williams dealer. Not one of the retail stores at the strip mall, but one of their professional contractor centers. SW has all types of finishes geared toward to pro market and will be able to help you match your finish steps with your equipment and project. Be sure to share some pics with us.

Tony B · 10-06-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom5151

"..............My plan is to use a pre-cat lacquer. Who makes a really good pre-cat lacquer?
Sherwin Williams Catalized and Pre-Cat lacquers are fairly good products. Also try Woodfinishersdepot.com. Their stuff is excellent and there may be an outlet near you.
Do any of the big box stores carry anything worth using?
I am very prejudiced. Not trying to start a war, but my attitude is that the big box stores carry low quality merchandise at a mid quality price. I rarely use anything from them and I especially dont buy any chemicals from them.
I plan on at least one or two coats of sanding sealer and then the lacquer finish.
Generally speaking, good Pre-cat lacquer does not require a sealer, but if you must, do not use a nitro based sealer under Pre-Cat lacquer. You will have to use a vinyl sanding sealer. The vinyl is also a much better moisture barrier and is used on table tops.
Also what is a proper thinning ratio for pre-cat lacquer being used with an HVLP system?
Sorry, cant help you here. I have rarely used an HVLP system and would rather not make suggestions. Whichever brand of sealer/Pre-Cat you buy, call their Tech Reps. I dont trust the 'expertise' of most salesmen

Good Luck and have fun.
Tony B

Sorry for the 'inbetween your text' answers but it is easier for me to reply that way.

cabinetman · 10-06-2009, 06:35 PM

I would try to talk you out of using lacquer. My suggestion is to use a waterbased polyurethane. You will have far fewer problems and the finish is as durable IMO. Pick up a quart and try it on some samples.

JW_in_Indy · 10-07-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

I would try to talk you out of using lacquer. My suggestion is to use a waterbased polyurethane. You will have far fewer problems and the finish is as durable IMO. Pick up a quart and try it on some samples.

I've seen you recommend water based poly before cabinetman. I've never actually tried the stuff.... How would you compare it to a high quality oil based product? I understand dry times would be faster and thus a big advantage, but I usually thin my oil based poly and do multiple coats which dry quicker than straight from the can coats.

Sorry for the thread jack Tom.... but I was curious.

cabinetman · 10-07-2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW_in_Indy

I've seen you recommend water based poly before cabinetman. I've never actually tried the stuff.... How would you compare it to a high quality oil based product? I understand dry times would be faster and thus a big advantage, but I usually thin my oil based poly and do multiple coats which dry quicker than straight from the can coats.

Sorry for the thread jack Tom.... but I was curious.

My primary finish used to be nitrocellulose lacquer. I used Sherwin Williams water white, thinned about 50%. It was a fast hard finish. In the early 80's I tried waterbased poly as a whim. Even back then during the first formulations, it was an effective finish comparable to lacquer.

I don't like using oil base on cabinetry for various reasons. It takes long to dry and is subject to collect dust and bugs. It retains an odor for a long time, and for that reason I wouldn't use it for an interior of cabinetry or drawers. It lends an amber tone to the woodwork. But, I must say if you don't have spray equipment, some woodwork can benefit from a wipe on finish.

As for durability, the waterbased poly's available today are equal to oil base and lacquer finishes IMO. I quit using lacquer because of health reasons, and waterbased poly offers fewer production problems.

Tom5151 · 10-07-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

My primary finish used to be nitrocellulose lacquer. I used Sherwin Williams water white, thinned about 50%. It was a fast hard finish. In the early 80's I tried waterbased poly as a whim. Even back then during the first formulations, it was an effective finish comparable to lacquer.

I don't like using oil base on cabinetry for various reasons. It takes long to dry and is subject to collect dust and bugs. It retains an odor for a long time, and for that reason I wouldn't use it for an interior of cabinetry or drawers. It lends an amber tone to the woodwork. But, I must say if you don't have spray equipment, some woodwork can benefit from a wipe on finish.

As for durability, the waterbased poly's available today are equal to oil base and lacquer finishes IMO. I quit using lacquer because of health reasons, and waterbased poly offers fewer production problems.

Thank you for your suggestions.

What is a good water based poly for what I want to do that will work well through an HVLP system?

Also, when you use the poly do you still use a sanding sealer first? How many coats of poly would you recommend as a standard for kitchen cabinets? These will be going in a rustic cabin and the finish wood will be pine.

Thank you.

cabinetman · 10-07-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom5151

Thank you for your suggestions.

What is a good water based poly for what I want to do that will work well through an HVLP system?

Also, when you use the poly do you still use a sanding sealer first? How many coats of poly would you recommend as a standard for kitchen cabinets? These will be going in a rustic cabin and the finish wood will be pine.

Thank you.

There's not that much of a difference in the brands of straight waterbased poly's that I've tried. Used correctly, they all finish pretty well. Some are cross linked, or have a catalyst that improve their use, such as Parks Pro Finisher. You could even use Minwax Polycrylic and get good results. I don't use any sealer.

The type of material has little to do with the type of gun. With any gun the orifice may have to be changed to coincide with the viscosity. With the WB poly's, I usually thin no more than 10% with water, and not changed the spray orifice that came on any of my guns. It can be sprayed with syphon guns, gravity guns, or HVLP.

Experiment first before doing your final finish. I spray thin coats. You will see within about the first hour how the finish looks and feels. Figure at least 3 coats or more. Lightly sand with 320x between coats. It's just a matter of being patient and not rushing.

Tom5151 · 10-07-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

There's not that much of a difference in the brands of straight waterbased poly's that I've tried. Used correctly, they all finish pretty well. Some are cross linked, or have a catalyst that improve their use, such as Parks Pro Finisher. You could even use Minwax Polycrylic and get good results. I don't use any sealer.

The type of material has little to do with the type of gun. With any gun the orifice may have to be changed to coincide with the viscosity. With the WB poly's, I usually thin no more than 10% with water, and not changed the spray orifice that came on any of my guns. It can be sprayed with syphon guns, gravity guns, or HVLP.

Experiment first before doing your final finish. I spray thin coats. You will see within about the first hour how the finish looks and feels. Figure at least 3 coats or more. Lightly sand with 320x between coats. It's just a matter of being patient and not rushing.

Perfect.....thank you sir...

I have used a Varathane product from Menard's recently on the new tongue and grove paneling in the same cabin and it worked out nice. However i did brush that on. After 3 coats it looked nice. Since I have some left i may just experiement with that first. Otherwise I'll look into the prodcut you suggested.

Thanks again for all of your help.

Tom

b00kemdano · 10-08-2009, 04:49 PM

Hey guys, may I cut in?

I was going to post a new thread about refinishing kitchen cabinets, but this one has a lot of good info.

Cabinetman, you seem very confident in the durability of water based poly when it's sprayed on. Would you recommend this for a "commercial" kitchen as well?

The kitchen at my church has well worn cabinets and they've asked me to do something about it. Sanding the old finish (and crud) off will be pretty easy, but then I was faced with what kind of finish to put back on? For unknown reasons, I believed that poly of any kind was bad and would succumb to high traffic and wet conditions under a commercial sink, much less water based poly. I really don't know why I think that.

For old cabinets in a kitchen that feeds 80 people 3 meals a day, plus Sunday breakfast and numerous other events, will water based poly hold up to the traffic?

cabinetman · 10-08-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b00kemdano

Hey guys, may I cut in?

I was going to post a new thread about refinishing kitchen cabinets, but this one has a lot of good info.

Cabinetman, you seem very confident in the durability of water based poly when it's sprayed on. Would you recommend this for a "commercial" kitchen as well?

The kitchen at my church has well worn cabinets and they've asked me to do something about it. Sanding the old finish (and crud) off will be pretty easy, but then I was faced with what kind of finish to put back on? For unknown reasons, I believed that poly of any kind was bad and would succumb to high traffic and wet conditions under a commercial sink, much less water based poly. I really don't know why I think that.

For old cabinets in a kitchen that feeds 80 people 3 meals a day, plus Sunday breakfast and numerous other events, will water based poly hold up to the traffic?

I wouldn't have second thoughts about spraying WB poly. Just prep the work well and follow instructions.

Tom5151 · 10-09-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

There's not that much of a difference in the brands of straight waterbased poly's that I've tried. Used correctly, they all finish pretty well. Some are cross linked, or have a catalyst that improve their use, such as Parks Pro Finisher. You could even use Minwax Polycrylic and get good results. I don't use any sealer.

The type of material has little to do with the type of gun. With any gun the orifice may have to be changed to coincide with the viscosity. With the WB poly's, I usually thin no more than 10% with water, and not changed the spray orifice that came on any of my guns. It can be sprayed with syphon guns, gravity guns, or HVLP.

Experiment first before doing your final finish. I spray thin coats. You will see within about the first hour how the finish looks and feels. Figure at least 3 coats or more. Lightly sand with 320x between coats. It's just a matter of being patient and not rushing.

As I mentioned, I have never sprayed before. Do you by chance know of a previous thread/s that may contain some good tips? I have looked and haven't seen anything.

Basically I am just looking for information about things like; where to spray; do i need to make some type of booth?; should i spray before or after assembly? do you somehow hang or suspend parts/members for spraying both sides or just spray one side at a time?

I know these are real basic questions and more than likely somoene has asked before. So if there are threads that address this just let me know.

Thank you.

cabinetman · 10-09-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom5151

As I mentioned, I have never sprayed before. Do you by chance know of a previous thread/s that may contain some good tips? I have looked and haven't seen anything.

Basically I am just looking for information about things like; where to spray; do i need to make some type of booth?; should i spray before or after assembly? do you somehow hang or suspend parts/members for spraying both sides or just spray one side at a time?

I know these are real basic questions and more than likely somoene has asked before. So if there are threads that address this just let me know.

Thank you.

I would first suggest you go through the "Finishing" section and you'll find many threads discussing procedures.

To briefly answer your questions:

It's best to spray in a protected area, preferably a booth of sorts that evacuates overspray, and introduces fresh air.

I usually spray after assembly.
Exceptions:

I spray cabinets less the back. Cabinets and back are sprayed separately.

I spray drawers less the bottom. Drawer box sides are assembled, and sprayed separately from the bottom.

I find that spraying vertically when possible (doors, shelves, countertops, backs and drawer bottoms) produces the best finish. Less of a chance for dust, debris, or bugs to land. It keeps the finish from "puddling", or getting too wet to the point of running. To help prevent that, use a lot of light on the spray area and watch the "glare" of the spray path. The trick is to get it wet but not run.

There's more to this than just point and shoot. When you get your spray equipment, practice with just plain water on a piece of cardboard. Work with different air pressures to the gun, and at the gun. I suggest you get one of the small air gauges that attach right on the gun, in addition to a bulb filter.

With experimenting, learn the adjustment differentials and outcome of adjusting the fluid and air mix. Also work with the actual spray pattern you will use, and the best working distance from the subject pieces. Then you can develop a movement technique that will provide good spray paths and proper overlap.

These are just a few suggestions. It would be a lot easier to show you than tell you.

Tom5151 · 10-09-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

I would first suggest you go through the "Finishing" section and you'll find many threads discussing procedures.

To briefly answer your questions:

It's best to spray in a protected area, preferably a booth of sorts that evacuates overspray, and introduces fresh air.

I usually spray after assembly.
Exceptions:

I spray cabinets less the back. Cabinets and back are sprayed separately.

I spray drawers less the bottom. Drawer box sides are assembled, and sprayed separately from the bottom.

I find that spraying vertically when possible (doors, shelves, countertops, backs and drawer bottoms) produces the best finish. Less of a chance for dust, debris, or bugs to land. It keeps the finish from "puddling", or getting too wet to the point of running. To help prevent that, use a lot of light on the spray area and watch the "glare" of the spray path. The trick is to get it wet but not run.

There's more to this than just point and shoot. When you get your spray equipment, practice with just plain water on a piece of cardboard. Work with different air pressures to the gun, and at the gun. I suggest you get one of the small air gauges that attach right on the gun, in addition to a bulb filter.

With experimenting, learn the adjustment differentials and outcome of adjusting the fluid and air mix. Also work with the actual spray pattern you will use, and the best working distance from the subject pieces. Then you can develop a movement technique that will provide good spray paths and proper overlap.

These are just a few suggestions. It would be a lot easier to show you than tell you.

thank you sir...

that is extremely helpful. I ordered a moderately priced HVLP sprayer from Rockler. Hope it will come this weekend and I can experiment a as you suggest. I'll check again through the threads here and look to see if there are some finishing classes through Woodcraft here in my area.

Thank you again for your help. This gives me a good basis to start from.

Tom

marioneG · 10-15-2009, 05:36 AM

I always use poly. It gives a great finish.