user27606

....

chemmy

well... a lot of people do use it to fill the wood grain, at the begining of the process [see video] and i also do at times only much differently, also i prefer mountain crystals instead, much more clear. But at the end stage no it is not used to fill, is is strictly acting as a polishing/smoothing agent that was left over in the beginning and left over on the pad at the end, that is why you don't use a new fresh pad at the end stage but the same one used for bodying the shellac. ok?

At the beginnig, the pumice serves two purposes, 1 it fills the pores, two in doing so it also abrades microscopic filiments of the wood itself off and mixes with the alcohol and pumice to give color to the pores, if done properly and long enough. Unfortunately this method is faulty in the sense that after the pumice dries out the pores take on a grey or whitish cast, spoiling the the look. that is not the way my family or i did it, i will explain once you know more about it and have some personal expierience with all the steps ok?

user27606

ok will do

Carlo Bartolini

Just as a note - from Kremer's 2009 catalog

Mountain Crystal Powder consists of crystalline white particles which are visible under the microscope.

Mountain Crystal, white crystalline powder, about 120 microns
Mountain Crystal extra fine, 0–63 microns

BUT - Mountain Crystal items 11400 and 11401 name's have been changed - now it's called Rock Crystal (I guess they ran out of mountains )

Rock Crystal, 0 - 63 µ

Rock Crystal, 80 - 150 µ

I bought the smaller stuff

-----------

Speaking of Kremer and Shellac, what do you think about this Kremer recipe - for last coats?

Paris Wood Varnish
for varnishing fine wood ware, also suitable for last coat of polished surfaces, especially small objects

5 kg fine orange Shellac ( 60410 )
1,5 kg Larch Turpentine or Gum Elemi ( 62000 – 62050 )
25 kg Ethyl alcohol ( 70800 )
Use Lavender Oil to scent varnish, ( 73750 )
for transluscent varnish: bleached shellac

My experience of mixing 10% Canada Balsam Rosin (made by sun drying canada balsam untill it became a resin) with shellac for the last thin coats increases gloss, appears the colors are more brilliant. (Artists have used and continue using these oleoresins in their painting mediums for quite a while now for these purposes - increases gloss, brilliant colors, imparts depth)

Larch Turpentine (the real Venice Turpentine) should do the same, but in much larger amount as Kremer's recipe, should be very nice looking.

Cliff

FP is not a particularly tough finish. If you want tough go urethane.
If you want artsyfartsy go with FP.

Lots of Luthiers do FP on their acoustic guitars I never saw a strap constantly rubbing the back of a guitar.

Acoustic musical instrument finishes are the subject of much debate. It's all about the effect of the resin on the tone and resonance of the wood. FP is often said to have been good enough for the great violin and luthiers of old and therefore it should be good enough today. However, that leaves unasked the many questions about technological advances in finishes since that halcyon and badly misunderstood golden era when the only options available were shellac or resinous varnishes.

Which would any instrument maker use? oils, shellac, light varnish, or heavy gooey goo? Not much of a tough choice I should think.

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER...31556&ACTION=D

I like this line:
"'We have found that Stradivari employed common and easily available components that were commonly used among craftsmen and artists in the 18th century,' "

What the hell else would he have used?

user27606

thanks for the reply it was to the heart of the post.

i'm just trying to understand the different finishes for wood projects and the french friction polish technique information i was able to find on my own was vague. but mr. chemmy and yourself are helping clear the air.

chemmy

Had big discussions of lac vs. oil varnishes on Meastronet.com. Unfortunately they are set in thier ways and i can see why, lot of discussions about differing grounds and balsam varnishes, not my cup of tea, but very interesting. I came away with a better understanding of tone on bowed instruments so it was not a loss.

Strad had a time machine, he came to South America and Met Carlo and he filled him in on what to use for his violins, so the honors should really go to Carlo. lol!! Just joking my friend.

chemmy

CARLO: "Speaking of Kremer and Shellac, what do you think about this Kremer recipe - for last coats?

Paris Wood Varnish
for varnishing fine wood ware, also suitable for last coat of polished surfaces, especially small objects

5 kg fine orange Shellac ( 60410 )

CHEMMY: What is "fine" orange shellac?


1,5 kg Larch Turpentine or Gum Elemi ( 62000 – 62050 )

CHEMMY: Big difference between a turpene and a soft resin like elimi!!


25 kg Ethyl alcohol ( 70800 )

Chemmy: 55Gallons, what are you plannig on doing the queen mary??

Use Lavender Oil to scent varnish, ( 73750 )

Chemmy: Spike lavender oil only [plasticizer]


for transluscent varnish: bleached shellac

Chemmy: Would not use either orange or massed bleached lac, refine your own kusmi botton lac only!!

Thats my input.

My experience of mixing 10% Canada Balsam Rosin (made by sun drying canada balsam untill it became a resin) with shellac for the last thin coats increases gloss, appears the colors are more brilliant. (Artists have used and continue using these oleoresins in their painting mediums for quite a while now for these purposes - increases gloss, brilliant colors, imparts depth)

Larch Turpentine (the real Venice Turpentine) should do the same, but in much larger amount as Kremer's recipe, should be very nice looking.

Chemmy: Most if not all turpenes on wood will give those affects, try them all and then decide which you prefer for your own work ok?

Sincerely, Chemmy

user27606

.....

chemmy

LOL, , with shellac and the other alcohol resins yes, [in very small amounts] just enough to temper the resins that have less elacticity. but the main reason is as a plasticizer as just mentioned. to give it the ablity to stretch and contract better thn without, no they are not "permenent" and depends on how much you would incorporate as to length of time they would stay aromatic. The interiors of many historical pieces in france have had gum benzoin added to the polish to keep the interiors smeliing like a cross between vanilla and cinnamon, but i don't reccomend it for face polishing at all, it darken over time and also absorbs moisture and swells.

user27606

oh ok thanks.

Carlo Bartolini

Not bad for a 300 year old finish

Corbin3388

I'd like to see the proof mark on the inside if you
Would. That's cool

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Carlo Bartolini

So that rules out the extra terrestrial oleoresins....drag..

you can see a little of a label in this pict....for closer evaluation please e-mail your address to the Ashmolean Museum of Art and Archaeology, Oxford, so they can ship you the Messiah......sorry for the lousy humor....

Cliff

stradavari may have benefited from the Maunder Minimum. It produced very densely packed annular rings in the Italian alpine spruces he used.

chemmy

beautiful carving on the tail-piece.

Corbin3388

That good sir is awesome

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Cliff

Clear? It's being used as an abrasive are you not going to remove it? Or does some embed in the finish causing clarity to work in your favor then?

cabinetman

French polish/friction polish can be done on any film finish. There's no secret to it. With a sufficient build of finish, once sanded out to a very fine grit, the sanding sequence is basically abrading, or scratching to a finer state. The polishing, is achieved with a lubricator of sorts, could be water, alcohol, or the media itself, as with shellac. The polishing at those final stages using a compound, finely abrades the finish, and the finish will build on the pad, and as the solvent evaporates, you have finish polishing finish.

Personally, I wouldn't go through all the handwork with a finish as soft as shellac. Here is an example of a high polish.
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Photos - 4 Pages: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/galle...00&ppuser=1269

Hammer1

This is a good tutorial on French polishing.
http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html