First time finisher - Woodworking Talk

Tom5151 · 02-02-2009, 11:15 AM

Hello,

I am finally going to be finishing the pine sofa table I have been asking endless questions about.

I want to emphasize the natural color and character of the wood and have decided to use a clear satin shellac to finish. My question is should i put anything over this? A poly or something similar? I have done some reading but get confused easily with all of the info out there on finishing.

I basically want the wood to look as natural as possible and be as durable as possible.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom5151 · 02-04-2009, 02:28 PM

LOL.....okay...okay....was it that dumb of a question?.....not ONE response in 2 days?....lol........just tell me it was a dumb question...i can take it......

CivilEngineer13 · 02-04-2009, 02:44 PM

It's completly up to you whether or not you put something over the shellac. That depends on the durability and look you are going for. If it's a table that is going to take a beating, then maybe you would want to consider poly over the shellac (make sure the shellac is dewaxed if you do put the poly over it). But if you plan on using the table lightly with coasters, etc. then you should be just fine with the shellac

cocacola_cowboy · 02-04-2009, 09:54 PM

I use a clear laquer that I spray on. Several light coats will give a glass smooth finish.

cabinetman · 02-05-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivilEngineer13

It's completly up to you whether or not you put something over the shellac. That depends on the durability and look you are going for. If it's a table that is going to take a beating, then maybe you would want to consider poly over the shellac (make sure the shellac is dewaxed if you do put the poly over it). But if you plan on using the table lightly with coasters, etc. then you should be just fine with the shellac

This should work good. Other than oil based polyurethane, you could use an oil base varnish, or waterbased polyurethane.

12penny · 02-05-2009, 09:50 AM

Tom....didnt know there was a clear satin shellac. Dont be afraid to leave the shellac as it is. The other posters are correct in that its not as durable as some other finishes, but you simply cant beat it for ease of repair should a scratch or mark appear. As soon as you cover it with something else it becomes difficult to repair any damage. I use it almost exclusively on my own furniture. Use coasters and the finish will be beautiful for years to come. And it tends to darken with age giving the surface a nice patina.

Tom5151 · 02-05-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12penny

Tom....didnt know there was a clear satin shellac. Dont be afraid to leave the shellac as it is. The other posters are correct in that its not as durable as some other finishes, but you simply cant beat it for ease of repair should a scratch or mark appear. As soon as you cover it with something else it becomes difficult to repair any damage. I use it almost exclusively on my own furniture. Use coasters and the finish will be beautiful for years to come. And it tends to darken with age giving the surface a nice patina.

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for your help. I should also mention that I have put a very light coat of sanding sealer on the entire project prior to any finishing. I am hearing now that shellac is not an option as a result of that. I was told I can only use varnish. Is that true? Can I put anything over the top of the varnish or should I just leave it as is when I am done?

Also, this is really only going to be used in a little foyer/hallway for some collectibles and knick knacks so it doesn't need to be quite as durable of a finish as a kitchen table or something similar that could get stained etc.

Thanks again guys.

12penny · 02-05-2009, 03:18 PM

Tom.....someone else will need to answer your question about using shellac over sanding sealer. However, if you had used shellac as your sanding sealer then it wouldnt be an issue. I normally use a 1# cut.

Tom5151 · 02-05-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12penny

Tom.....someone else will need to answer your question about using shellac over sanding sealer. However, if you had used shellac as your sanding sealer then it wouldnt be an issue. I normally use a 1# cut.

I am such a green rookie i didn't even realize that you could use shellac as the sanding sealer......thatnks for the tip......next project for sure.........

but it does have to be de-waxed in order to top coat it with poly right?

CivilEngineer13 · 02-05-2009, 05:15 PM

Correct. Dewaxed. Got me stumped on the shellac over sanding sealer though. I am waiting for a reply on that on too!

Gerry KIERNAN · 02-06-2009, 10:15 AM

Hi Tom

To the best of my knowledge shellac is very susceptible to water marking, so I would be leery about using it on a surface such as a table, where you will be placing glasses, etc. Clear satin varnish, varathane, or polyurethane create a durable finish which is more tolerant of water marking. I have been using water based polyurethane lately. It is a treat to use, and very easy to clean up. I do not think that you can apply it over any oil based product. I have been using it right from the raw wood stage, and sanding between coats. I know that regular oil based poly is quite tough, but I am not sure yet about water based poly. Has anyone out there used it long enough to know how well it stands up to staining and abuse?

Gerry

clarionflyer · 02-06-2009, 04:48 PM

Water based poly goes on a little different (very little color change, low odor, etc). But it seems to hold up as well, or better, than oil base. I used it on a wood floor (muddy boots, kids, and dogs)... it's tough.

On furniture, I usually cut oil based poly down with odorless mineral spirits. Thin it down to a light oil like consistency, and use a tightly rolled rag. It goes on much smoother and easier and keeps drips and air bubbles to a minimum (very lightly sand in between coats with high grit paper). You have to put on an extra coat or two, but the finish is much more "touchable?" (it's not a syrupy finish like poly tends to become).

Water base poly on furniture shouldn't yellow or color the wood like oil, but I haven't really used it much for furniture (or tried diluting it with water). Sorry.
Hope it helps.

clarionflyer · 02-06-2009, 04:55 PM

P.S. not sure about the shellac - poly combo either. Hopefully someone else will chime in?

Tom5151 · 02-06-2009, 05:01 PM

thanks a ton guys....this has been really helpful......i think the only unanswered question i still have is can i use shellac over sanding sealer.??....the guy at SW insists I should not but I am not sure I am totally confident that he knows that of which he speaks.....if any of you can confirm or dispute that would be great....

have a good weekend

Gerry KIERNAN · 02-07-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarionflyer

Water base poly on furniture shouldn't yellow or color the wood like oil, but I haven't really used it much for furniture (or tried diluting it with water). Sorry.
Hope it helps.

I have used water based poly on maple kitchen cabinet doors that we are refinishing. There is almost no colour change. I diluted the poly with about 10% water to spray it, and had excellent results. I really like how fast it dries to the touch.
I am brushing wb poly on the pieces of an intarsia eagle I am making. The maple parts darken very slightly. The cedar parts darken a little more. There is almost no yellowing that is common with most other finishes.

Gerry

Tom5151 · 02-09-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarionflyer

Water based poly goes on a little different (very little color change, low odor, etc). But it seems to hold up as well, or better, than oil base. I used it on a wood floor (muddy boots, kids, and dogs)... it's tough.

On furniture, I usually cut oil based poly down with odorless mineral spirits. Thin it down to a light oil like consistency, and use a tightly rolled rag. It goes on much smoother and easier and keeps drips and air bubbles to a minimum (very lightly sand in between coats with high grit paper). You have to put on an extra coat or two, but the finish is much more "touchable?" (it's not a syrupy finish like poly tends to become).

Water base poly on furniture shouldn't yellow or color the wood like oil, but I haven't really used it much for furniture (or tried diluting it with water). Sorry.
Hope it helps.

Can you give me a ballpark ratio for thinning the poly? Can I still brush it on with this mixture or would you only recommend the rag method?

clarionflyer · 02-10-2009, 03:51 PM

I read a recommendation on this forum that suggested thinning the poly. Then I read a book that suggested about a 60:40 poly to spirits ratio for the first coat. Then to gradually add a little more poly for each coat, up to around a 75:25 ratio (poly:spirits).
I tried it, using a tightly rolled rag (like I read here on the forum). It works great. It goes on much like an oil... I even started by rubbing in circles, then feathering it out straight with the grain.
The book claims that thinner poly penetrates more without just riding on the top of the wood. I have to agree. In fact, for the legs and sides of a piece, I keep the 60:40 ratio and put on 3 easy coats (dries fast, with very minimal touch sanding). I now only strengthen the ratio (or add coats) for surfaces that will get a lot of exposure to wear or hot cups.

Using straight poly with a brush requires diligence to prevent drips. And I tend to get a lot of air bubbles. This is mostly avoided with the thinned poly and rag.

I've finished 4 or 5 pieces now using this technique, with great results. Two words of caution are: I've only used this technique with satin or semi gloss (I can see wear thinning gloss down may reduce the gloss effect). The other thing is to be sure to keep stirring the thinned down poly. It seems to settle quickly.

Never tried using a brush with the thinned down ratio. Sorry.
This approach has really helped me get better results in less time, with my finishes.
Basically you're just controlling the amount of poly you put on with each coat. Reducing your runs, drips, and air bubbles.
Good luck.

Tom5151 · 02-10-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarionflyer

I read a recommendation on this forum that suggested thinning the poly. Then I read a book that suggested about a 60:40 poly to spirits ratio for the first coat. Then to gradually add a little more poly for each coat, up to around a 75:25 ratio (poly:spirits).
I tried it, using a tightly rolled rag (like I read here on the forum). It works great. It goes on much like an oil... I even started by rubbing in circles, then feathering it out straight with the grain.
The book claims that thinner poly penetrates more without just riding on the top of the wood. I have to agree. In fact, for the legs and sides of a piece, I keep the 60:40 ratio and put on 3 easy coats (dries fast, with very minimal touch sanding). I now only strengthen the ratio (or add coats) for surfaces that will get a lot of exposure to wear or hot cups.

Using straight poly with a brush requires diligence to prevent drips. And I tend to get a lot of air bubbles. This is mostly avoided with the thinned poly and rag.

I've finished 4 or 5 pieces now using this technique, with great results. Two words of caution are: I've only used this technique with satin or semi gloss (I can see wear thinning gloss down may reduce the gloss effect). The other thing is to be sure to keep stirring the thinned down poly. It seems to settle quickly.

Never tried using a brush with the thinned down ratio. Sorry.
This approach has really helped me get better results in less time, with my finishes.
Basically you're just controlling the amount of poly you put on with each coat. Reducing your runs, drips, and air bubbles.
Good luck.

got it...thanks for all of the great detail....so basically a 3:2 ratio (poly:spirits)...makes sense....i will try that on some practice peices...

I am using a minwax oil based poly and have a lot of solids at the bottom of the can. I stirred it up to break up the clumps on the bottom of the can but the solids suspend in the poly rather than dissolve. I took it back and had them check several cans with the same result. I am thinking about straining before i use it to get out all of the suspended solids......

Gerry KIERNAN · 02-11-2009, 06:56 AM

I am using a minwax oil based poly and have a lot of solids at the bottom of the can. I stirred it up to break up the clumps on the bottom of the can but the solids suspend in the poly rather than dissolve. I took it back and had them check several cans with the same result. I am thinking about straining before i use it to get out all of the suspended solids......[/quote]
Sounds like the poly may have been sitting on the shelf too long. Have them put it on the shaker, and then take it home and run it through a paint filter.

Gerry