Table saw Guards? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
View Poll Results: How many use a guard for standard table sawing operations
always use guard and splitter assembly 11 22.45%
always use a splitter only, no plastic guard 3 6.12%
always use a riving knife only, no plastic guard 6 12.24%
rarely use a guard or splitter 8 16.33%
never use a guard or splitter 21 42.86%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
where's my table saw?
 
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Exclamation Table saw Guards?

How many use a guard as a standard part of sawing, removing it only rarely, if
ever?


This You Tube video show WHY
kickback occurs:

There is no charge for the free advice, but you get what you pay for ... just sayin'

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-09-2010 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Yable saw conversion. :-)
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post #2 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 08:18 AM
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I read the topic and said to myself..."What's a Yable?" Safety devices are provided for a reason. Removing them for any reason puts the operator at risk.

Excuses like "it gets in the way" or, "it's more dangerous with it" don't cut it in the long run. If I decide to remove safety devices, I'm at my own peril, and blame can't be placed anywhere else.






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post #3 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 10:09 AM
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"If I decide to remove safety devices, I'm at my own peril, and blame can't be placed anywhere else."

Based on what I've seen/heard, I'd say you have a poor understanding of our staggeringly stupid legal system. For example, I can easily imagine a jury rewarding a careless woodworker who says that an "accident" happened because the safety guard *CAN* be removed. He should have been protected from himself and it's the manufacturer's fault for not doing so.







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post #4 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phinds View Post
Based on what I've seen/heard, I'd say you have a poor understanding of our staggeringly stupid legal system.

I value my fingers and hands more than whatever money I could get for cutting them off.






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post #5 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 01:48 PM
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I do not use the plastic guard much but the riving knife stays on 90% of the time.
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post #6 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 03:47 PM
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I wonder if table saw accidents went down significantly after guards came on the market, percentage to users not in number. There's a lot more woodworkers today than prior to guards and riving knives came on the market. I would *think* there's ;ess accident %wise but I also know that as Paul infers, they are largely there to reduce liability to the manufacturer.

If my shroud had still been on my miter saw last week it would've shattered into nice sharp pieces of flying plastic. You ought to see what it did to the K-shape. It also totally trashed my nice Daren-sharpened 80 tooth Avanti blade. It's ruined.

(I feel a lecture coming from da Cabster. )



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post #7 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
where's my table saw?
 
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Maybe this approach is too simple?

If a tool or other device is supplied with a safety device and it's use is described in the operator's manual, but is either not installed or later removed and an accident/injury occurs, the manufacturer of that tool or device should not be held liable. A safety device while available on other tools but not initially designed into the tool that was the source of injury is, in my judgment, irrelevant.

The initial purchase was made based on the merits (or demerits) of that particular tool, cost, weight, availability, etc. and was the purchasers' choice at the time. A safety device was included with that tool. If the device can be proven defective or inoperable, then the manufacturer should be held liable.

Technology will always outpace older tools and can not be retroactively fitted or legally required.

I think lawyers always look for the deep pockets and will pursue any and everyone they can in their own interests whether they are "responsible" or not. JMO bill

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Last edited by woodnthings; 05-10-2010 at 10:24 PM.
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post #8 of 25 Old 05-09-2010, 04:57 PM
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I have Biesemeyer guards on both my PM66 and my vintage Unisaw. I consider both saws hazards any time they're plugged in. I plan on replacing both with SawStops. I plan to install the Biesemeyer guards on the SawStops for dust control and eye protection.
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post #9 of 25 Old 05-10-2010, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting Results so far

If we add the 2 bottom categories, "rarely and never" together we are at about 68 percent! bill

There is no charge for the free advice, but you get what you pay for ... just sayin'
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post #10 of 25 Old 05-10-2010, 09:34 PM
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I 95% of the time use the splitter and riving knife the plastic guard I can flip up so about 45% on that. Depends on the job I'm doing, I know it should always be used, but it's my fault if something happens. When anyone else is in the garage/shop I use all so knowone else might be injured from my stupidity.
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post #11 of 25 Old 05-10-2010, 09:51 PM
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Re: poll

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people".
H L Mencken
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post #12 of 25 Old 05-11-2010, 08:33 AM
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I'm planning on making my own style BORK for my Delta..... Hell I haven't had time to use it and I've had it for almost a year still need to make a wider base for it to support the Beise fence.
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post #13 of 25 Old 05-11-2010, 09:17 PM
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safety

I can't help making a comment or two when reading this thread. There are two safety issues that all woodworkers should, in my opinion, adhere too. First, always use a splitter on a table saw, and any other safety devise that comes with equipment. Some eight thousand people a year suffer from "blunt trauma to the stomach" as a result of not using a splitter. This kind of accident usually means exploratory surgery with a cut from stem to sternum and eight weeks of recovery time. A few don't make it as the hit from the thrown board snaps the aorta. Secondly, I recommend, from personal experience, a three horsepower table saw as apposed to a five horsepower. The three horsepower will more than likely stop if something goes wrong. The five is unforgiving. I have great respect for my machnery, especially the table saw. If I get impatient or tired, I walk away immediatly and come back another day.
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post #14 of 25 Old 05-11-2010, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodney View Post
I can't help making a comment or two when reading this thread. There are two safety issues that all woodworkers should, in my opinion, adhere too. I have great respect for my machnery, especially the table saw. If I get impatient or tired, I walk away immediatly and come back another day.

Well said!

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OH, wait a minute ............Yep!.............That's what he said!
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post #15 of 25 Old 05-12-2010, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
If we add the 2 bottom categories, "rarely and never" together we are at about 68 percent! bill
I'm more concerned with the fact that 27 out of 32 all but first category "rarely and never" use the actual blade guard. There must be a reason that the count is that high.

Last edited by rrbrown; 05-12-2010 at 07:22 PM.
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post #16 of 25 Old 05-12-2010, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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This is a small sample

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
I'm more concerned with the fact that 27 out of 32 all but first category "rarely and never" use the actual blade guard. There must be a reason that the count is that high.
Only 5 out of 32 always use a guard and splitter. Interesting but not surprising, at least to me. Richard, after seeing your photos I was a whole lot more inclined to use the safety devices, which I still had.
You inspired this poll, in case you hadn't already figured that out!
I think there is a preconceived notion that "It won't happen to me"
especially among those who have years of experience using a TS, like myself. Kickbacks are far more common than blade injuries in my opinion, but they can rupture an organ and I know of an experienced mill operator who had a piece embedded in his gut.

The "see thru" plastic guards are a problem when crosscutting, since you can't see the blade under the guard and know exactly where the cut is. The blade edges can be visible if you use a sacrificial fence extension bolted to your mitre gage. I Always use one myself for that reason and to assist in cutting both long and short pieces.

I do most of my crosscuts on the RAS saw which has the kerf in the fence and the table. When it gets a little rough and hard to see, I spread a little Bondo in it, sand it, and make a new pass to clean up the kerf.

bill

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post #17 of 25 Old 05-12-2010, 08:51 PM
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Well, I'll say that this thread, and richards photo experience, have absolutely convinced me to put the guard and splitter back on the table saw. I just recently bought it and the contractor who used it had long ago removed it...but thankfully I thought to ask about it and he still had it. I have to find the bolts for it, but I think that won't be too hard.

Not blaming ANYONE here but myself, but I know part of the reason I had thought I'd be ok doing without it is because all of the tutorials I've seen show them without it (thanks Youtube!). Pride and overconfidence kicked right into gear. It wasn't a conscious choice, just a general attitude towards the whole thing. This is part of the cost of having to learn this myself instead of having been raised going woodworking or having some local group to learn from.

I'm glad you all helped me realize that I was not approaching this whole thing with enough healthy fear!

On the positive side, I think I've decided I want a Saw Stop table saw....in about 10 years when I can afford it....
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post #18 of 25 Old 05-13-2010, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Kickbacks are far more common than blade injuries in my opinion, but they can rupture an organ.

bill
I did figure that I inspired the thread Bill.

I got this from one of the articles I read about the law suit. If you divide the number of injuries reported by the years you get the 33,275 injuries per year,

"According to the Journal of Trauma, an estimated 565,670 table-saw-related injuries were treated from 1990 to 2007 in U.S. emergency rooms. The vast majority involved a hand coming in contact with the blade, and about 10 percent ended in amputation."

which is why I'm amazed that, that many people don't use the guard. I know why and evidently I didn't either but With those numbers you know the saw manufactures have to be aware of the problem. That said it makes me even more confused why they rejected the technology to stop it. Not to start a whole new debate here, I'm done with that.

Either way if my experience keeps a few others from doing the same thing then great. I myself hope to get a Saw Stop if I can get the money together. I just noticed tonight that I'm lucky I didn't lose the middle and ring finger also. looking at the picture I don't understand how I didn't, but I'm very glad.
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post #19 of 25 Old 05-13-2010, 04:47 AM Thread Starter
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Hospital treated!

This is "reported" and treated" injuries:

"According to the Journal of Trauma, an estimated 565,670 table-saw-related injuries were treated from 1990 to 2007 in U.S. emergency rooms. The vast majority involved a hand coming in contact with the blade, and about 10 percent ended in amputation."

I'll betcha there are far more kickbacks that go "unreported and untreated" since they just hurt like hell or scare the crap out of someone but don't draw blood or remove digits. Just my theory and from personal experience.

Maybe a new thread entitled:
Have you ever been injured on a table saw?
Did your hand contact the blade?
Ever had a kickback?
Did you need a doctor or hospital for stitches?
Did you treat the injury yourself?
Did you pass out?

I put the last question in because I remember cutting the tip off my finger on a Bridgeport mill clearing away chips and my teacher had me sit down cause I "turned green" and felt woosey, but didn't completely pass out. If you work alone and pass out that can be serious! This happened in a rehabilitation center, so it got "treated" but went unreported. The teacher was a good doc. bill

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post #20 of 25 Old 05-13-2010, 02:04 PM
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Bill in Texas Timbers case you would have to add a category

"Did you have to stitch yourself up?"

I normally would treat myself also but when I seen my finger hanging and I went through the joint I figured it was a bit beyond my pay grade. Duct tape and bandages were not enough

You might be on to something with the not reported kickbacks. I only had one but it required a glass man for my neighbors window. No personal injuries just a single pane window in his shed that was replaced before he got home and I told him it was broken.

Last edited by rrbrown; 05-13-2010 at 02:08 PM.
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