slatron25

Are to become mandatory on all new tables saws. Although I only have a little contractors saw I worry about kickback. I'm thinking they finally got something right with this safety feature.
Here's a link to a short report.

http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...fw-editorsblog

Jdurg

Good! The only time I've ever been somewhat scared when using power tools was when the table saw I was using kicked back a wood plank a TINY bit. Only an inch or so. But it caused me to stop for a good few hours until I could forget about that and work comfortably again.

smitty1967

I agree completely....I took my riving knife off today to make a cut into a 4x4. I elevated the blade after starting the saw with the 4x4 parked over the blade....made a couple passes, then flipped the post and repeated the process. In doing all this, I was keenly aware that at any time if that 4x4 walked away from the fence, I was in the wrong place.

I feel quite comfortable using the cabinet saw with the riving knife in place, and agree it's a good feature to make mandatory.

smitty

niki

As I know - from reading around - the Riving Knife (RK) is only a requirement of the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) and refers to "New designs from 2008" that means that an "old design" table saw will continue with the traditional Splitter/Anti-kickback pawls (or "Fingers" as they are called by OSHA).

If you'll look at the OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) safety regulation, you will not see a word about RK but I hope that by 2014 (dead line) all the new TS's will come with RK and it will be also an OSHA requirement.

BTW, The first industrial table saws made in the U.S. had riving knives (source - Kelly Mehler article) but later - for some reason - reverted to Splitter.

The Splitter (together with the anti-kickback pawls) was dropped in Europe at the 60th (yeap, some 40+ years ago) and the more safe Riving Knife (RK) took its place.

But, the RK cannot protect you from a kickback when you are cutting "Reaction wood" (in spite of the advertisements but, the advertisement also defines a 15A router as 3¼ HP and a small shop-vac of 11A as an 6½ Peak HP).

After the workpiece passes the front teeth of the blade, the cut is actually finished.

If an internal stresses will be released (Reaction wood), the wood can do one of;

1. Spring "in" and "close" on the blade...(in my experience, it just stopped the blade but no kickback occurred) in this condition the only way to finish the cut is by pushing wedges to keep the kerf open.

2. Spring "out" and press on the fence...but the fence is "stronger" so, the wood will be forced to the other side - into the up-raising teeth of the blade.....and after a split of second....a UFO will fly toward the operator at 60 or more MPH...

After the RK became a "safety regulation" in Europe, the kickbacks continued (in much smaller numbers though) in spite of the RK.

So a new idea was "born" - the "Short Fence".

I would like to show you pictures of a "Reaction wood" that "closed" on my blade and stopped it.









As you could see on the pics above, I'm using a "Short Fence" that is supplied as a standard rip fence with the TS (Made in Germany) and also has 2 positions "High" - for thick wood or re-sawing and, "Low position for shallow or bevel cuts (to prevent the blade to touch the fence when tilted to 45°).
I'm not re-sawing on my TS so, I never used the "High" position because the Low fence gives me more "open space" for push sticks etc. and it's so relaxed not to "drive in congested areas"








On the following picture, I would like to show you how - very simple - you can make your short fence...

























Continued on the next post due to pics nomber limitation per post...

niki

We - I mean human - tend to be conservative and we don't like to change what we learned as young guys so I'm sure that the Short fence will not be accepted by many...

But, the world is advancing and new ideas and methods are slowly, slowly taking the place of the old ones.

If you remember, when Bill Gates introduced "Windows", many said "it will not fly"...

Same happened in the airline that I was working for. When the new generation of cockpit instrumentation was presented by Boeing, Airbus and others...the old pilots could not except this "Glass cockpit" (that is actually a bunch of computer screens) and many did not want to go to the new fleet and remained in the "Good old 707 or 747"....nowadays, the new generation of pilots cannot understand how those guys were flying with a pre WW II instrumentation.

Same in woodworking....in UK, the old generation did not accept the Short fence but, the new generation of woodworkers that was trained in schools to use the short fence, doesn't have any problem with it.

I would like to emphasize that the short fence is used ONLY when ripping SOLID WOOD and not man-made boards like plywood MDF, in that case a Long fence is used.

Finally, I would like to show you how much confident I'm with the short (and Low) fence...

WARNING - DO NOT TRY THIS METHOD WITH "LONG FENCE" OR WOTHOUT RIVING KNIFE because with long fence, the wood is trapped between the fence and under the blade that can be very dangerous.















Regards
niki

cabinetman

In theory, the "short fence" seems to make sense. I've used a short fence and I don't like it, and I'll explain my reasoning. I'll be using Niki's picture as it will clarify what I'm explaining.

In using a table saw, consider instead of a small light piece of wood, an 8' or 10' piece of Red Oak 4/4 or 5/4 thick and 10"-12" wide. I'm using this size just as an example. In my experience I've gotten used to making sure the edge of the stock is against the fence tightly throughout the cut, and keeping my eyes on that edge, not the blade. As the piece is fed through, it could move in either direction. Having a "short fence" would have no bearing on wood that walked to the left.

With regard to the picture below, as that piece is fed through and pressed against the fence, once it passes the fence, there is no guide to take it past the blade. So, with that large and heavy of a piece, once it gets past the center of the board it presents a harder to control feed as the forward end can move in either direction. The picture below is a good example of how questionable it would be seeing where the end of the board is compared with what's guiding it past the blade.

If feather boards, or rollers could press hard enough on the edge to force it against the fence, the board still would not have any guidance once the cut is made. Whatever is used would still have to allow the board to be pushed easily forward. Using a push stick to get the board to go to the right after it leaves the fence would be an inordinate control function as the movement concentration is forward. Furthermore, with a heavy, long board, using a push stick at the end of the cut would move only the end of the board, and could allow the forward portion to skew to the left.

Maybe I'm just a fuddy duddy very set in my ways, but I know what feels safe to me. I wouldn't recommend a procedure that I felt could be unsafe. But, I do remember running around the house as a little kid with a scissors in my hand.
.

niki

Hi Cabinetman

First you owe me money for using my picture...

Please have a look at the picture that I'm showing the "Reaction wood"...it's not an 8' but only 3~4' but still, I was using simple push stick that you can see also on the Bevel cut pictures.

We both know SARGE and he is cutting many foot/board every day and he is using Short fence....BTW, he got a new beautiful table saw...

On the picture that you took as an example (actually on all the pics showing bevel cut), when the wood passes the front teeth (still before leaving the fence) the wood is already severed and I even don't care if it will move to one direction or the other, it's free - no pressure from any direction and even if it will touch the blade back teeth, so what, it will just be pushed away (and it has where to go because there is no fence at that area)...I don't think that you can get a kickback if there is no strong pressure on the blade or in other words - if there is no fence to trap the wood.

That's the way that they teach in the UK WW schools (actually, in all the EU countries but I don't understand the other languages so I'm referring to UK) and that's the way the SHE (equivalent to the American OSHA) is recommending to do.

Who is HSE ? A very powerful "Health & Safety Execution". They can close your shop in a blink if they'll find something that is not according to the safety regulation...and they don't tell you when they are coming....

The HSE is supported and influenced very strongly by the unions that want the safest working environment for their employees (if I'm going to work in one piece - I want to come back in one piece) and, they don't care how much it will cost the "Boss" to give them those safe machines.

I would like to mention a few of the HSE safety regulations...

*"The Riving Knife and the blade guard MUST be installed for ANY operation on the table saw".....
No, no, no - there are no cases that you must remove the RK and/or guard to make some operation that requires their removal. If that's the case you are not using the correct machine for the correct job...so the Boss shall have to buy a machine that does this operation safely...

*The blade guard must be of the "Quick attach/detach" type and must include dust port connection

*The blade must stop within 10 seconds on all woodworking machines (and from 2008, also the metal working machines) that are not equipped with permanent guard (that is defined as a guard that you need to use some tools to remove it).

*No Dado Blades...

Even the cheap "Made in Chiwan" $100 table saw must obey those regulations or..."No Entry" to EU

In UK, you can not show on the TV any operation that is not according to the safety regulation....Norm (NYW) would have to build furniture for his living....Blade guard removed for clarity ??? what clarity they are talking about...every body knows exactly what happens under the blade guard....but, "Read the instructions and understand them".....no such a case in UK...you teach like this - you show like this and not - teach like this and show like that.

My God, those guys on the TV here are just going to drill a 1/8" hole....with Cordless drill...and they put on the ears and eyes protection...even I get mad of that but...safety regulations....

Now, after all this story, do you really believe that those "Safety fanatics" - the HSE - will recommend, teach or allow such an operation like the "Short fence" if it was not 103% safe...

If you'll have a look at the UK woodworking forum, you'll see that all the replies (and pictures) are according to the regulations....even I was "told off" a few time for posting some pictures that are against the safety regulations that, when I posted in the USA forums I got Wow's and Waw's....

Maybe, you remember my post that I made something similar to the Grrriper...after "Woodmangler" told me "No way that I'll pass my hand over the blade", I went to the garage and tested it...when my hand was over the "naked blade"...well.... I was lucky to wear the brown pants that day...it scared the $h!t out of me..."project deleted"...but in USA, the Grripper is sold as a "Safety device".....safety device ??? that tells you "Remove the blade guard"?....don't forget that before and after the cut you still have a 2~3" of naked blade just waiting to send you to the ER and, $h!t happens...

Of course, I'm not trying to convince anybody...if you don't feel safe with some operation, just don't do it, like me, I don't feel safe with the Grrripper so, I just don't do it...

I feel safe with the short fence...

SARGE feels safe with the short fence...

Ian Kirby is recommending the short fence...(I have all his 4 books)
http://www.rockler.com/blog/index.cfm?commentID=215

And Jim Tolpin is also recommending the usage of the short fence "When you deal with problematic wood"...the problem is that you never know that the wood is "problematic" till you don't get it on you face so, IMO, the best is to refer to any wood as "problematic"...

Below is a picture (drawing) that is taken from the HSE - "Table saw safe operation" (PDF file).

Best regards
niki

cabinetman

Niki,

I hope you don't take my opinion personally. If you use a short fence in your shop and like it and feel it's safe, that's your opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's what forums are for, to voice opinions and discuss differences in points of view.

I've used the short fence and don't like it and feel it's not a method for cutting that I feel comfortable with. I watched the video of the new Unisaw®, and didn't see any options for a short fence. I've also looked at the new fences from Biesemeyer®, Grizzly®, Shop Fox®, and HTC®, and didn't see an option for a short fence. Unifence® does have a slide back but it's recommended only for a stop for cross cutting.

As for government intervention in safety items, I will say that some of the experiences I've had with what's required and recommended may have been derived from polls and research. I doubt seriously that the guys in coats and ties heading the commissions are behind some of these recommendations because they use the machinery on a daily basis and speak from direct experience. A lot of the costs involved with what becomes mandates are money makers for either the manufacturers, or some government agency.

I am familiar with Sarge, and I remember him commenting on successfully cutting tempered glass. That I gotta see for myself. I also don't get impressed with descriptions of volume of work involved with a procedure as proving credibility. Anyone can say anything.

You and I are are on similar grounds as we don't have anything to gain but to help others. I take what I read with a grain of salt, and if it sounds feasible will try it out myself, like many of your jig ideas. I may be totally off base with my opinion of using a short fence. It could be my lack of confidence in the amount of control I don't have after the piece gets past the teeth.

As for kickbacks, I must say that I've had my share, and maybe most of them were my own fault. All it takes is a brief loss of concentration, or loss of grip. I might have been over tired or was in too much of a rush. IMO, if a table saw is used, kickbacks are part of the risk. All we can do is try to minimize it from happening.

niki

Hi Friend

I'm not taking your comments personally and, as you know, I respect your professionalism and experience.
With all my 13 years in the hobby, I don't think that I have even 0.001% of your experience and knowledge.

We just have different views and it's good....just imagine that all the people in the world were "Windows XP", thinking and acting the same way...how boring our world would look and probably, we would not have WW forums because every bodies opinion would be the same...

Luckily, it's not like that....

To the point...as I said, if you don't feel comfortable with some operation - just don't do it.

As far as know, all the American rip fences are long and tall. I heard that the "Unifence" has the ability to move back but I did not see it and I take your word for it.

The "White collar" guys, probably understand something about WW but, I think, not to the extent that they can "invent" new safety ideas. I have a friend in UK (Scrit) that is professional and looks like a "walking encyclopedia" for WW...You ask him a question and he starts the explanation from the 19th century till today....he is also an accident investigator for the HSE and they take him just because he has much more experience working every day...

As I said, the HSE is pressed very strong by the employees Unions that want the safest environment for their people.
In General, Europe became "crazy" about safety, energy conservation, environment and more...the leading countries are UK, Germany and France and I believe that they have "safety Engineers" that understand very good in calculating the "what if", the forces involved and many other consideration and, they are advising to the "EU Safety Committee" white collar guys that sits in Brussels (on our account) and decides on the new safety regulations, implementation etc....I just don't believe that the "officials" invented the "short fence" concept...

It cost money, and a lot but maybe, comparing to the money that the governments have to spend for ER, medical care and the loss of working days due to accidents, maybe it will cost the government much less to legislate a safety regulation...and yes, I believe that those laws are "Money makers" for the manufacturers, but, governments do not look at in the Micro (i.e. the individual citizen) but in Macro...is it good for the country or not.

I hope that you were not effected by the big shares fall but, your government is going to "push" 80 Billion Dollars to save AIG....yes, it's your money and if you don't have connection to AIG you would say, "let them fall" but the government looks at from different point of view...

Talking about "money makers" - every war is a money maker for a few mfr's so maybe we should not make wars......good idea but not practical....I've seen on the CNN what the American solders are getting in Iraq and Afghanistan and all those products (self cooling Cock???) cost a lot of money to your government (or you) and somebody is "making money" out of it...and don't get me wrong - the troops "out there" deserve all that and even much more...I would give them even an "Air-conditioned uniforms" and double room (for single) in "Hilton".

Another example is from my X-profession...I don't believe that you read the FAR (Federal Aviation Regulation) part 125 (or was it 121...getting old) that deals with Civil Aviation...there are zillion of regulations on how the aircraft should be built and which tests it has to go through, starting from the structure and goes through every system to the smallest details....yeap, Boeing and the others are "making money" from it but the end product is that we get safer airplanes (the reg's are updated all the time if they find some fault that caused crash).

Same it WW, they do make more money (my table saw costs $2000 and it's not something "to write home about"...simple Aluminum table) but, the end product is that we - as workers - get better and safer machines.

I'm just presenting an idea or method that is a "standard operating procedure" for all Europe and I'm not sure but I think that the USA and EU number of citizens is very close...
So one continent (north America) is using one method and the continent "across the pond" is using different method...

I did not have the "pleasure" of getting a kickback......and I worked 10 years (that are maybe a few days for you) with long fence...only the last 2~3 years I work with the short fence and at the beginning, I was very sceptic about it, I even build an home-made long fence because the original one was too short in my opinion.

Nowadays, I feel a little bit weak (I got some virus that is "in the air" here and I'm on drugs) but, ones I get stronger...I have a Lauan board of 1¼" thick, only 4" wide but some 8~10' long...I promise to cut it "in front of the cameras".....I'm not afraid of kickback, the riving knife, in conjunction with the short fence makes me to feel so safe and if I add to it the "Feeder rollers" that you can see on the pics above, I can stand totally on the right side of the table far away from the "bullets"...

As for standing on the side of the table, please have a look at Kelly Mehler article about Euro table saws comparing to the USA table saws
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/ar...splay?id=14789

Your friend
niki

niki

Good day

I promised to cut some long board with the short fence.

I would like to say it again - if you don't feel confident or, this "small voice inside you" tells you - NO - please don't do it and use your method.

I'm sorry but the board length is not 8' but only 5' 7" (67") but you know how it is with us men, we always thing that it's longer till we measure it and the truth "hits" us on the face...

Just to be on the safe side that I'm not doing or giving wrong information, I sent an e-mail to Metabo woodworking Engineering department asking them "why did you make the fence so it can be pulled back and used as short fence"...

Here is the Metabo reply and I hope that you'll understand his English because he has a German accent

Another fanny thing is that they use the terminology - "Dead wood" (probably translation from German) and the meaning is Man made boards like plywood, MDF and chipboard.
What we call "solid wood", they call "reactive wood", anyway, here it is...

Dear customer,

thank you for your email regarding the setting possibilities of the rip fence.

Reactive woods (not dead woods) can move to the side just after cutting. That's why there might be the risk of a kick back if the rip fence is set in the long position.
In order to minimize this it is recommended to set the end of the rip fence to the saw blade center (short position).

For sawing dead wood like chipboards it is recommended to set the rip fence in the long position in order to achieve the maximum guiding length.

The riving knife is absolutely necessary and the correct position of the rip fence has to be chosen according to the wood!

If you have further questions please feel free to contact me.
Furthermore enjoy woodworking!

With best regards

-------------------------------------------
Florian Fischer
Produktmanager Holzbearbeitung
Product Manager Woodworking

Phone: +49 (0) 70 22-72-2529
Fax: +49 (0) 70 22-72-2074
Email: ffischer@metabo.de

metabo
work. don't play.


So, lets go to the pics...

This is my setting. As you can see, I'm using the "Rollers Feather board" (I never rip a long board without them).
Also, please note that I'm using Infeed and Outfeed table that are, IMO, are very important.
I don't use the "rollers Outfeed table" first, because I don't have it and second (and maybe more important), I read somewhere that the rollers might pull or push the board to one side leading to a dangerous situation (if they are not exactly lined up with the TS).




Closer view, please note how much of fence support I have before the blade - 24" - that is holding the board attached to the fence far before it enters the blade.
You can see the simple - but very long - push stick...28" long so even when I push the board past the blade, my hand is still very far behind.




I set the fence almost to the Arbor center (the hole that you see on the table near the blade center is for pushing a pin to lock the Arbor for blade change).
As you noticed, I love "high blade" for ripping solid wood. It's easier on the motor, the feed rate is faster and the cut is cleaner without burn marks but of course, I use the blade guard that covers this "meat and bones slicer" totally.




Ready to cut...please note that I'm using the "Low fence even though the board is 1¼" thick.
It gives me more "open area" and actually the "High fence" in not needed even if the board was 3" except in the case of re-sawing (that I never did on the TS)




I'm still using my hand to push the board from the end




But that's the point that I revert to push stick




Last push.....




Done...please not where is my hand when the cut is finished...




As you can see, no burn marks even though I use 60 tooth blade.




I took another board....longer - 75" that, if you call it "not straight", it's a "compliment" for this board...




Same procedure...




Finished...




Again, no burn marks.




Regards
niki

cabinetman

Niki,

Well, you are a man of your word, and these days that's impressive. Don't take this as offensive, you cut a "long" board without incident, which may mean the board got cut without incident. Not to mean that it couldn't be with incident.

Your picture and description of the "short" fence as seen here:
.

.
shows the end of the fence 1" - 2" from the cutting edge of the blade. Quoting the rep from Metabo to your question about the short fence:
Reactive woods (not dead woods) can move to the side just after cutting. That's why there might be the risk of a kick back if the rip fence is set in the long position.
In order to minimize this it is recommended to set the end of the rip fence to the saw blade center (short position).

How much the longer distance to the center of the blade will make, that difference is not my contention. Although, it seems to be more efficient extending to the center of the blade. The rep also used the terminology "In order to minimize<kickback>, it is recommended...

What I'm saying is that I'm all for whatever will help in operator safety. If an operator doesn't "feel safe", or is performing a procedure that feels doubtful, that in itself may be an unsafe attitude. I can't say that everything I do I feel safe doing. Not by a long shot. I like to think I've minimized my risk. Experience has it's benefits in sounds and feel. Maybe after a while woodworkers develop a special sense to what could be a disaster. I'd like to think that I answer most of that problem before I start. I'll consider what I'm about to do and ask myself if there is anything I can think of that may be hazardous. Hopefully, most of the time I make the right decision. I hope it wasn't luck all this time. My parents (if they were still alive) would have liked to think their was some brain activity involved with making my decisions.

I'll add that cutting a narrow relatively short piece of wood is slightly different that a huge board. It comes to mind a job I had that I needed to cut a lot of Mahogany for a bar, that I have pictured in "Old Gallery". I had three lengths of 10/4, 20" wide, 18' long. Pushing it through the saw takes quite a bit of effort. Was it reactive...you bet. The trees it came from must have been fertilized with Cheerios©. Whatever the leading end did after it got cut was unpredictable. There may have been no "walking" to the right. It could be all to the left, and there is where RK's make a difference. Even with RK's, there's enough mass to bind or possibly bend RK's.

So, back to the issue. I've used short fences, and maybe I'm too set in my ways to trust that I'd never have a problem. I would think if it was as safe as it's thought at least one major fence manufacturer here in the US would promote the idea. AFIK, none do. It's like you said, whatever we feel safe using is the point. I realize that in any shop work there's a risk, and those that use a regular "long" fence that have never had a kickback may have a false sense of safety in that design.

niki

Hi Cabinetman

First, AGAIN you are using my picture....second warning

As for the picture itself, I asked this question in a UK forum of people that are in the trade (the small questions there are about Felder and altendorf) and they told me that the fence should extend to 1~2" beyond the front teeth of the blade...you know, different people - different opinions...

But I wanted more professional opinion and, I sent an e-mail to Metabo and now, I'm also extending the fence to the center of the blade as on the new pictures.

As for "In order to minimize the kickback risk" - I'm sure that you know that nothing is 100% safe and the kickback can happen even with the riving knife and the short fence.
It's the same like sawstop has the new technology but, in case of an accident -they are not liable (and they know why) and there are many more examples.....as we say: "The only sure thing in the world is - death" otherwise nothing is 100% sure or safe.

Of course if you want to be 100% out of danger, you can feed the wood with Power feeder and computer controlled saw but I'm talking about "normal" people.

The risk of a kickback, is always there. You can minimize it by using a riving knife and you can minimize more (IMO much more) by using short fence but, it looks like you cannot totally eliminate it.

In USA, many many WW's don't use even the splitter because "it's always on the way" and, when combined with the long fence that, - if the wood "springs out" it will pinch the blade - IMO, that's the biggest kickback risk set-up.

Using the splitter will reduce or minimize the risk. The riving knife will reduce it even more than the splitter and, the combination of riving knife and short fence will minimize it to very small chance of kickback but always, maybe 0.001% of risk is there.

I think that I made it clear on every one of my posts that, I'm not trying to convince anybody to work that way and if one doesn't feel comfortable or confident with it, do it your way so, please take my posts here more as an information on how it is done in other countries...kind of "Hey guys, look how we are doing it here"...just a side note, I don't belive that the Germans and the British (that are "safety fanatic" IMO) would give me such an advise if the "short fence method" is more risky that the "long fence method"...not only, but they are teaching like that and building the machines accordingly.

As for the American long fence...I was told that actually the short fence is NOT a "Euro patent" - it was in use on the old industrial TS's in USA at the 30th or so...but, for some mysterious reason it changed to long fence, maybe (just assumption) because the "public" demanded long fence for cutting those 8' x 4' good sheets (like nowadays, many TS's are coming with left tilt blade because of "public demand")

Another "news" is that, the riving knife is also NOT a "Euro patent" - it was a "Made in USA" patent but again, for some reason, was dropped and the splitter/anti-kickback pawl/guard combination took it's place and everybody knows that the majority of the WW's are just "packing" all the assembly and "putting it in a place that I'll never find it again" because it "never aligns" and "it's on the way".

The riving knife and the blade guard are mandatory in EU but, the short fence is not mandatory and it's only advisable to use it to minimize the kickback chances as much as possible.

You said that "if it was as safe as it's thought at least one major fence manufacturer here in the US would promote the idea"....now, please take my next words in a very friendly and fanny way and if my words will offend anybody, I apologize in advance but I could not hold my self....

It took the riving knife 40+ years to "cross the pond" and "come-back" to USA and now, all America is "riving knife, riving rife"....so maybe, in the next 40 years of so, also the short fence will "cross the pond" and "come-back" to it's native land of origin
Again, please take my words above as we are talking among friends...it's not my intention to offend or insult anyone of you or your country

Best regards
niki