Replacing post and angle braces - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

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post #1 of 13 Old 04-06-2016, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Replacing post and angle braces

Hello, I work at a zoo and I have been tasked with doing some repairs on our timber framed barn. From what little I know about timber frames, the barn was traditionally built using pegs. I have to replace a post that has some water damage. I believe I have a plan for the post but I cannot figure out how to replace the braces. Can someone point me in the right direction as to how to do this in the traditional method, without using any metal plates or lags. Also it isn't practical to lift the beam above it. Is this even possible? I have posted some pictures, any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

*Sorry about the orientation on last 2 images
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post #2 of 13 Old 04-06-2016, 10:41 PM
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I would build temporary supports to either side far enough away that you can work but close enough to take the weight wedge them into place using two opposing wedges so when you hammer them toward each other they will tighten but fitted together so they stay flat.
Not sure what the issue is with reproducing the cross brace it looks like a draw bore tenon to me.
If your worried about reproducing it take it off and copy it.
Just in case you don't know a draw bore tenon hole is offset from the hole in the piece it fits into so that when you pound in the peg it will tighten them together.




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post #3 of 13 Old 04-06-2016, 10:55 PM
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It's just a through mortise and tenon joint. Without mortising equipment probably the easiest method of cutting the mortise is to drill all the way through the post on the angle it needs to be with a paddle bit as many holes as it takes and then use a sawzaw to work out what is left. A helper to watch the opposite side would help. It would be real easy to cut outside the line. You might also have to finish it up with a chisel. It's more grunt work and patience than anything. Once you have the parts fitted it's just a matter of drilling a hole from the side through the tenon and drive a peg in the hole. The peg won't be a dowel it will be tapered like a wedge. If you don't have access to a lathe you could take a dowel and whittle it to a tapered shape. It's not very much smaller on the small end but enough it won't just fall out.
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post #4 of 13 Old 04-06-2016, 11:23 PM
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The repairs can be done BUT the way they go back together due to the joints they are cut a little differ BUT look correct or are considered correct for that style. The braces are the easy ones but the bad upright post with the top tenon IS NOT a easy fix, I was shown a trick using whole post to tilt this in but the bottom isn't all flat on the base. The other option is a 2 piece upright post with appropriate scarf joint.

Read up on anything Jack Sobon has written on timber joints and repairs.

Those shouldn't be through tenons but close... Get your water and termite problem fixed!!! I'd check out Penetreat by Sashco which should be safe with the animals and people, BUT have that checked by YOUR caretakers. It's a Borax based bug and fungi??? killer.

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post #5 of 13 Old 04-07-2016, 09:47 AM
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In order to replace that newly cut brace into the existing brace pockets you're going to have to cut the brace mortise pocket longer.
And after putting it up into the plate slide it into the elongated brace pocket. And secure with a new peg. Then put a spacer block into the elongated brace pocket. It will work and shouldn't look too bad.

If you need to replace the post then pull the pegs out of the plate. Or if they are through peg holes push the pegs out. If they are not through peg holes then you'll have to try and pull them.

First thing to do is decided if you're going to replace the post. Remove the bad post, and when replacing it put the braces into the post first a slide all three up into the plate at the same time. Once the 2 piece post is in plate then put the bottom half in place.
Or if you can taper the post top tenon so you can tilt the post into the plate first. With the braces attached and slide it up into the plate mortise until the brace tenons engage the plate. You may need to taper the brace tenons as well in order to tilt it into place.

To pull a "blind peg" first drill a small hole in the end of the peg. Then place a hose clamp around the peg to hold it together. Twist in a screw. Like a Ledgerlok or timberlok screw but leave the head proud of the peg end. Using a pry bar and some blocking, put the pry bar under the head of the screw and pull the peg out.

Attached is a picture of doing this minus the hose clamp.
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post #6 of 13 Old 04-07-2016, 09:49 AM
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As mentioned you may need to support the plate either side or both sides of the post while you take the bad post out.

Keep your chisels sharp.
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post #7 of 13 Old 04-07-2016, 03:49 PM
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If only the bottom is rotten...

May be you could sister in a new section of post and leave the good portion in place. There are ways, and I'm not saying this is one for your situation, but it's pretty cool:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specfic. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo

Last edited by Steve Neul; 04-08-2016 at 07:05 AM.
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post #8 of 13 Old 04-07-2016, 07:55 PM
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wood splice joints

A search bought up this image





The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specfic. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo
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post #9 of 13 Old 04-07-2016, 11:02 PM
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I mentioned a scarf joint BUT that title may be incorrect, it may be considered a splice joint as woodenthings mentioned BUT I think it would be more complex with draw pins and square cuts. I've been looking through the many TF joint books I have but I can't find the one I've seen used on a repaired post. It does need to be long for shear strength and square ends for compression.

The one poster Jim Rogers has pics of actual repairs similar to ones needed. He could guide us better on the correct term and joint needed.

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post #10 of 13 Old 04-08-2016, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies

Thanks for the advice, every reply has been helpful. It looks like I have no choice but to go back in with a 2 piece post. I will install the top of the post with the 2 braces, and then use a scarf joint to slide in the bottom piece of the post. I believe the best scarf joint for this application will be the tabled splice joint, posted by woodnthings, but without the wedge.
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post #11 of 13 Old 04-08-2016, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj1776 View Post
Thanks for the advice, every reply has been helpful. It looks like I have no choice but to go back in with a 2 piece post. I will install the top of the post with the 2 braces, and then use a scarf joint to slide in the bottom piece of the post. I believe the best scarf joint for this application will be the tabled splice joint, posted by woodnthings, but without the wedge.
The above picture is one of my "bladed scarf joints" that I have taught others to use in post repairs. It can be cut in a standing post, if you do it in the right steps.
Or on the bench when making up a replacement post.
Jim Rogers.
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post #12 of 13 Old 04-08-2016, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Rogers View Post
The above picture is one of my "bladed scarf joints" that I have taught others to use in post repairs. It can be cut in a standing post, if you do it in the right steps.
Or on the bench when making up a replacement post.
Jim Rogers.
That's the one I was looking for. It has strength for multiple direction of forces.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
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post #13 of 13 Old 04-10-2016, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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Here is another pic I found where the joint is being used in posts. These have an extra tab at end. My joint has to slide in from side so Ill not cut in the tab.
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