What should I tell the sawyer? - Woodworking Talk

David K · 04-03-2008, 09:08 AM

I felled three large oaks, containing about 1000 bd feet. A sawyer with a mobile horizontal bandsaw has suggested the wood should be cut at 5/4, so it can be planed to full dimensional 1".

But almost every project I work on uses 3/4". Should I insist on 4/4 cuts, or take his advice? He seems to know more than I do, about converting back-yard trees into useful lumber.

Marko · 04-03-2008, 09:34 AM

Is your sawyer hearing you?You need to use 3/4.....why would you want to plane/resaw through a 1/2 of "OAK" to get to your desirable thickness.If I needed 3/4" I would saw at 4/4.Your sawyer is right BTW,if you were shootin' for an inch then saw to 5/4"...

Mark

**TexasTimbers** · 04-03-2008, 09:34 AM

Acustom sawyers job is to cut your lumber to the dimensions you ask. If he feels you are requesting something detrimental to your best interests he should tell you. Once. If you insist otherwise, he ought to cut your lumber the way you ask.

What flavor of oak is this? Oak is not as dry-friendly as walnut but certainly not prone to wild movement except where alot of stress is being relieved etc. So I don't understand why he's insisting 5/4. It isn't sweetgum or sycamore that does have a tendency to moev alot during drying.

I would not cut it less than 4/4 for sure. that give you plenty of room for movement, shrinkage, and secondary processing on the parts of the tree less prone to movement. Where the boards have grain that will tend to move a little more then let him take 5/4 if you want.

The governement has all kinds of studies to determine optimal thickness of rough cut lumber. These excerpts are from my pdf library, all snatched from governement websites. One good use of our tax dollars I must say.

How thick should red oak lumber be cut
to produce furniture cuttings that must dress
two sides to a thickness of 13/16 inch? The
answer to this question is of considerable
importance to hardwood lumber’ producers
and to furniture manufacturers and dimension
mill operators. It is also of importance
to the general public because it involves the
utilization of a high value forest resource and
because it is the public that ultimately pays
for inefficiencies in the manufacture of any
product.
If hardwood lumber is cut thicker than
necessary to produce a satisfactory dressed
cutting, the producer will get a lower yield
from a given volume of logs: The consumer
will have to pay more for the lumber he uses.

Thickness losses encountered in kiln drying
and dressing 4/4 red oak lumber were
studied. Results suggest that rough dry lumber
can be reduced to slightly less than 1 inch
thick to produce moderately long, wide cuttings
dressed two sides to a thickness of
13/16 inch. Rough dry thickness for panels
should be slightly over 1 inch to dress to
13/16 inch. Green 4/4 lumber should be 1/8
inch thicker than required rough dry size to
allow for shrinkage. Control of sawing variation
and warp during drying are two major
problems in trying to reduce green and rough
thicknesses of hardwood lumber.

This is for Red Oak. I have a decent amount of experience with red Oak but zero with White so if you have White you want to get some feedback from some other guys here who have cut it My experience with Red Oak is that it does not move much.

**joasis** · 04-03-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David K

I felled three large oaks, containing about 1000 bd feet. A sawyer with a mobile horizontal bandsaw has suggested the wood should be cut at 5/4, so it can be planed to full dimensional 1".

But almost every project I work on uses 3/4". Should I insist on 4/4 cuts, or take his advice? He seems to know more than I do, about converting back-yard trees into useful lumber.

A lot of this will depend on how true he can saw it. I have a circle mill, and I usually hit a smidge over 4/4, and if you stack it and dry it correctly, you will have no problem. If the portable mill will cut true 4/4, there is no reason not to have a few extra boards per log that otherwise would be sawdust from the planer.

David K · 04-03-2008, 10:52 AM

Thanks, this is red oak. I like the sawyer, and I know he will do what I ask, even if I shouldn't ask him to (that's why I posted here). I'll double-check his confidence about whether he's sure that 4/4 on his machine is really 4/4.

I liked his comments about how he watches the way the first cuts behave. He talked about relieving the stress in the wood, seeing whether there's movement, and adjusting the next cuts accordingly.

With 1000 bd ft to choose from, I think I'll ask for 100 bd ft of 5/4 (in case I sometimes do need some full 1" later). That lets me check the variation before changing to 4/4 for the majority of the wood. If we assume there's going to be some drift in the cuts, what minimal width in this green would should my calipers find? 5/4 should be 1.25" (fresh cut). Looking at the above posts, I will still get 13/16ths (planed) if the green wood is 'slightly less than 1in'. Does that mean my green 5/4 can be less than 1.25in by 1/16th, 1/8th, or what?

**TexasTimbers** · 04-03-2008, 11:16 AM

Don't worry too much about sixteenths when dealing with rough lumber coming off a sawmill unless it is all for furniture. Eights are a different story. 1/8" is a good chunk of wood and you need better accuracy than + 1/8" no matter what the lumber will be used for. When you ask for 4/4 you should get no less than 13/16" and no more than 1 1/16", and I don't even like that because that is actually a swing of 1/8".

I don't start getting off by a sixteenth consistently until the blade gets ready to change. If I am sawing for furniture, I don't wait until it gets dull like I would for fence pickets or siding that will never see a planer, I keep a sharp blade on and set aside the one I just took off for siding etc.

Aaronmcc · 04-15-2008, 09:37 PM

I don't won't to be rude by asking this but, out of curiosity, what's the ballpark figure for a sawyer to come and mill a tree?

**joasis** · 04-16-2008, 05:28 PM

By the hour is typical....I have heard everything from $35 an hour to $60. I mill by the board foot, or half of the lumber....but I don't do this for a living.

**Daren** · 04-16-2008, 06:33 PM

I am stationary (don't go to the logs, they come here) so I am cheap by the hour $40. I charge $35 bft (not so cheap compared to others) For a guy to come to you there would be a set up fee...but if a portable sawyer is running a nice machine (mine is a low production mill) you will freak at the pile of lumber he can made in a day

. There are other things that have to be worked out too, location for example, a sawyer can just get more done if the logs are placed where they are easy to load and saw. Realistically if you have even $.50 bft (which is WAY high) ....that is still 10% of what you could go buy the lumber for, assuming it is good stuff.
And like joasis said some will saw for a share of the lumber (I do it all the time) you don't pay anything.

David K · 04-16-2008, 07:32 PM

I've gotten a bunch of rates, but no actual agreements. It seems this is a side job for a lot of folks.

Portable bandsaw (Northeast Ohio) rates have been $.50-.60 per bd ft, plus a set up fee. Some charge $100 to set up, others charge per hour or per mile. It amounts to the same thing, mostly.

Circular saw rates have been $.20 per bd ft, but I have to get the logs to the mill. I have about 1000 bd ft to cut, and the circular mill owner claims his way won't lose much more wood than a bandsaw. He says that's because it's hard for portable bandsaws to keep a sharp enough blade to avoid the wandering that wastes wood. He also says that surprises like embedded metal can often get through his circular saw with less damage (and cost to me).

Is he right, that there's not a great difference in wood saved with the two choices? (I actually may not have a choice, since I'm having trouble finding a portable mill owner who's in the mood).

**Daren** · 04-16-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David K

It seems this is a side job for a lot of folks.

the circular mill owner claims his way won't lose much more wood than a bandsaw. He says that's because it's hard for portable bandsaws to keep a sharp enough blade to avoid the wandering that wastes wood.

Well 2 things, see how long the "part timers" have been at it (how much they have sawn/past customers...) Just having a sawmill does not make you a sawyer, know what I mean ?

The second part is just BS, sorry. But the $.20 bft sounds fair.

Marko · 04-16-2008, 08:56 PM

I agree with Daren

especially about the secound part!!!!

Marko

**joasis** · 04-16-2008, 09:29 PM

An out of tune circle mill can "wander" in a cut also, with bad results. And you will get a board "free" about every 5 boards with a bandmill that is sawdust on a circle. My blade runs 9/32 wide teeth, and the actual kerf is more like 5/16 to 3/8.....so do the math. A circle mill is way faster, and somewhat more resistant to metal, as long as it isn't a log chain.

Kirk Allen · 04-20-2008, 02:10 PM

I charge $75 an hour and/or $.35 a BF depending on the job. If its a mobile job I charge a set up fee of $25.00 provided the job is within 25 miles.

Depending on how wide you want your boards to be as an end product should be a consideration for what you cut them to. It takes the extra thickness on some wide boards to clean up the whole board to the desired 3/4".

For example, I cut red oak that needed to be 20" wide boards for a special project. They HAD to be cut at 5/4 in order to fully clean up to the 3/4" mark as wide boards will cup to some degree and that brings up the issue of where they are cut from in the log. The closer to quarter sawn the more stable they will be.

Boards less than 10" wide, I cut them 1 1/8" and after drying I can usually get them to the desired 3/4" mark with one or two passes on the planer on each side.

Hope that helps.