History of the lumber kiln anybody? - Woodworking Talk

ironhead · 01-17-2009, 09:56 AM

I have been trying to find all info I can about the milling and drying process of wood before I start to have some logs cut that I can get given to me plus some of my own. All that I have read says that how I have the wood cut, how I have the lumber dried, stacked where this is done at etc... effects the end product. I have no money for a kiln or to have the lumber kiln dried even if I could find one locally so here are some questions.

My first project is to build a shop to work out of as well as my need for more storage space. If I build it out of green wood am I going to be wasting good lumber?

How should I have the lumber cut to minimize shrinkage and waste?

What are questions I need to ask the sawyer?

Any help is really appreciated.

Ironhead

**TexasTimbers** · 01-17-2009, 10:44 AM

I'll give a few answers and the rest of the guys can add on, but I need to ask a few questions first. Let's start with some basics because your questions are very broad, though they may seem specific to you. I see you live in Kentucky, but this does not tell me which species your locals will be giving you, and which ones are growing on your properties. SolLet's start with species. What species will be available to you? This makes a big difference.

Now a few "answers". I am not sure why you want to read a history of dry kilns, as that isn't necessary especially if you can't afford one. But building with green wood is never suggested. Of course, it is done though. The species you choose makes a big difference. Not just in movement, but in structural integrity etc. Timber framers will tell you not to use Eastern red Cedar for timber framing. What they mean specifically is do not place ERC timbers in tension. Compression is okay but ERC timbers are not suited for extreme tension. However, ERC can be used to construct your shop as long as proper building methods are employed.

Post and beam construction is not the same thing as traditional TFing, and ERC is well suited for this type of construction provided you understand the limits of the species. ERC dries quickly also, is stable, and will resist bugs and decay. This species would be the one best suited for the limits of your resources if you can locate them in quantity and large enough size. You can build with 6 x 6 posts for the most part, and a few larger 8 x8 and 8 x 10s for roofing members. Limiting the spans and making sure no roofing members are subject to long runs of tension.

What you are hearing about the "way the log is cut" refers to the grain orientation. Flat sawn, rift sawn, and quarter sawn. As a general rule quarter sawn is the best orientation to limit the movement of wood as it dries. Rift sawn is next, and flat sawn especially among some species will move like the dickens. This is not addressing the fact that some species exhibit a much more attractive grain pattern sawn a certain way, while other species lend themselves to opposite patterns to bring out their best faces.

You have to ask yourself how imperative is it to build immediately. It would be much better on you in the long run to fell the trees this winter and have them sawn right away, and sticker and stack it. You need to have covered areas to stack the wood, or else utilize proven air drying methods such as weighted tin on the stacks. You must have the piles stickered properly, with ample air flow through the stacks, and situated where the sun cannot get to the wood directly and bake the it.

You must not allow most logs (some species are more tolerant but not for long) to sit in the sun.

Cottonwood is one of the most excellent softwoods for framing. As long as you keep it dry, it will stay in service from now on. It dries pretty fast, is light and very strong. It's usually free as well. I have 3 whoppers lying out in the woods right now that i have to et out pronto. They don't keep well on the ground for long I hear. I have never let them lay long i don't want to find out.

So Cottonwood and ERC are a couple of choices if you have to build this year. You let them sit around for a few weeks and you can use them. the Cottonwood takes a little longer but not much. Some species that come to mind to stay away from when building green ~ most actually but some real doozys on movement or decay etc. are..... Sweetgum, Hackberry, Ash (rots bad unless kept dry) & Sycamore.

Some better ones for building green would be Honeylocust or Black Locust (both strong and durable), Loblolly pine (must be kept dry), Cherry, Catalpa (surprise - it has great qualities), and about a dozen others that don't come to mind as yet. Less attractive for green building but still viable are Red or White oaks large enough to quarter & rift saw (flat sawn white is a bugger to dry).

I have only scrathed the surface, and some of my mates may disagree with some or much of what I have said. That will be welcomed as I don't know it all by a long shot and need firther skewlin myslef. But you have started a great thread I believe. This is a subject I explored a great deal some 4 to 5 years ago myself. I know that I have notebooks full of information and I will hopefull be able to put my hands on them. This topic fascinated me when my wife and i took a log home building class in Washington State in Decemeber of 04. We learned a great deal about building green in that one class. It is doable, but there are many things to consider.

ironhead · 01-17-2009, 11:17 AM

Thanks TT. I was trying to search the history of the kiln drying process to see when it started and then research how timber frame construction was done before then because I have seen many log structures that could not have been built after kilns came to be and thought that if I could learn what they did to minimize the problems of building with green wood then I could maybe duplicate and get me a shop built to work out of instead of my dinner table and front porch.

I would like to build this year and the logs that are available to me right now are shag bark hickory, white and red oak. Other species in this area are maple, locust, cottonwood, pine and ERC.

I have a friend that has a bandsaw mill and will cut for my on a sharing deal of 50/50 but I went out and saw his op and he cuts everything flat sawn from what I can tell so I don't know if I am going to use him much or not. This is why I need to know what questionjs I need to ask a sawyer before I let him cut my logs.

Thanks a mill for the advice and hope my answers to your questions help you help me and others in my situation.

**Daren** · 01-17-2009, 01:38 PM

I will admit I am still a little confused. Are you just stick framing a shop ? Both pine and cottonwood milled now would be air dry enough to use this fall (late summer). A couple possible problems is the pine not kiln dried to "set the pitch" can ooze sap at the knots, but for framing big whoopee. TT was probably typing 1000 miles an hour (like he does everything

) and said cottonwood was a softwood, it is a soft wood, but classified as a hardwood. It will dry fast, if properly dried-dry flat and would also make good framing. Kiln drying also gets rid of "bugs" in most cases (namely powder post beetles in hardwood and in the pine a certain borer that the name has temporarily slipped my mind). Not to say a kiln dried structure won't be eaten in 4 years by termites

. I have milled much pine for others for "utilitarian" uses like framing in the past and air dried they put it into service without problem after the summer was over (framing, fencing-the wood was treated for the fence, painted outdoor furniture...). Of course this was in applications that a building permit was not issued...if you have to have a building inspection if the lumber is not "graded" you may run into a little problem. I would do some checking on that before hand, no permit-no problem.

Timber framing I admit I am not too familiar with, but we have a timber framing section here http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f28/

johnep · 01-17-2009, 03:42 PM

When taking woodwork at school, we used what was called 'American Whitewood'. From what you are saying appears that it may have been cotton wood. Never seemed to have any knots, good smooth texture but not too hard or heavy.
johnep

**TexasTimbers** · 01-17-2009, 04:47 PM

I don't know why but I have always had Cottonwood filed away as a softwood even though I know better. It won't be the last time I do it either I am sure.

Ironhead, one reason the old-timers got away with using green lumber was because they were using old growth timber. Extremely tight rings which made for very dense lumber compared to the stuff Weyerhauser grows today with rings a 1/4" apart. We still have some old growth forests here in the U.S. contrary to popular belief, but most of it is on Federal or State-owned lands.

Also, they didn't use green wood as much as you might think. Log cabins were often built after the logs were allowed to lay for a season. Hence the slang phrase "Is that wood seasoned?".

**Daren** · 01-17-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasTimbers

Ironhead, one reason the old-timers got away with using green lumber was because they were using old growth timber. Extremely tight rings which made for very dense lumber compared to the stuff Weyerhauser grows today with rings a 1/4" apart.

Excellent point. I was involved in a discussion awhile back on a construction forum where that was brought up. Guys where commenting on even in the last 5 years the rapid decline in "straight" framing material. They have slowly noticed it over the course of their time in the trade, but it is getting worse. Obviously this wood is coming from tree farms and rapid growth hybrids making the lumber less stable.

Make no mistake Ironhead (or anyone) there is a big difference in the lumber just in the way the trees grow. Since I mill "yard trees" too I have cut open some logs and thought "What the heck ?" Maybe a 40 year old oak grown in the open where someone used those fertilizer spikes to make it get big fast and be pretty (plus fertilized their lawn)...Then the same species from some dense timber may be the same size but 120 years old, with 3X the ring count.

ironhead · 01-17-2009, 08:28 PM

Thanks guys. Will be stick framing the shop but I hope to be doing it sooner than in the fall. I was looking at Darens site earlier at the Kiln plans page and will probably be getting with him soon to get a copy and hopefully start assembling that. I have a small storage shed that I may be able to empty out ( needs it bad anyway) and use that if possible.

Gonna try and get a little more lumber out of the sharing deal with the sawyer if I can kiln dry his for him. May be able to do some for profit and use that to get my own mill but thats a LONG way off. Sure the wife will have lots of plans for any extra funds that come our way.

I do need to learn more about the milling process so I dont get screwed by who ever I get to saw for me for now. Any suggestions on reading material for that?

**TexasTimbers** · 01-17-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironhead

I do need to learn more about the milling process so I dont get screwed by who ever I get to saw for me for now.

Getting screwed by a sawyer is the least of your worries. Sawyers are a pretty good lot. Sure there are sharks in every sector but I think you'll find that most of your time should be spent keeping you from screwing yourself, by moving forward with all of this before you are ready.

By the time you have your ducks in line you will have learned enough in general to be able to at least communicate with the sawyer intelligently. One thing we really don't like is a guy with crash-course education coming into our saw yard telling us how things are going to be.

Not saying you would do that. My point is, you have much to learn before you move forward with this. I really think you should adjust your time frame to accomodate your learning curve or you are going to be the one screwing yourself not the sawyer.

I speak from experience aka the school of hard knocks.

Kirk Allen · 01-18-2009, 12:06 AM

If I build it out of green wood am I going to be wasting good lumber?

Build with air dried lumber if possible but if your Timberframing follow the basic guidlines in any good Timberframe book and you will be fine. Most traditional Timberframes are built with Green lumber. I have helped on several T-Frame raisings and each one was green lumber. Stick frame? - Air Dry to 15-20% moisture and you should be fine.

How should I have the lumber cut to minimize shrinkage and waste?

Cut the lumber as wide as possible, stack it, dry it, then resaw to the excact dimensions you want. Trying to cut to the dimension you want right off can cause problems with boards that have crook in them. When you resaw those to get them straight you end up with lots of waste.

What are questions I need to ask the sawyer?

Keep it simple :) What do you charge?
Seriously, most sawyers with any experience will be able to provide you with what you "need" if they know what your going to use the wood for.

If you have access to a bunch of cotton wood have him saw it up into 2x material for construction, sticker it and air dry it for 4-6 months then you will have plenty of stick lumber for the majority of your project. Put lots of weight on it when you have it stacked to minimize movement.

I normally have about 1,000-2,000 BF of Cottonwood stacked and dried and I use it for almost every project you can imagine. It has the strength similar to white pine without any knots! Its light weight and easy to work with.

I cut the thickness to 1 5/8" and when it dries its right on the 1 1/2" mark. I cut the max width I can when its green then resaw it to the excact measurment I want when its dried. Normally 5 1/2" wide. This ensures good straight lumber when I build.

dirtclod · 01-18-2009, 09:54 AM

"I would like to build this year and the logs that are available to me right now are shag bark hickory, white and red oak. Other species in this area are maple, locust, cottonwood, pine and ERC."

I don't want to over-simplify this but I think a reminder that our ancestors did pretty well without kilns and used green wood. Matching species, sawing methods, building design, and timing were the main keys.

You said you were going to stick frame the shop. Let's start there. You can use green lumber for this straight off the mill. Typically it would be nailed in place and sheeted asap so it couldn't move while drying. But be aware that it will shrink some. This will create challenges around any windows and doors that were designed to fit a standard 2x4 opening. The standard is 3-1/2". But if you cut your 2x4's 3-1/2" they may end up drying down to a variable thickness of 3-1/4 to 3-1/2". But that's why they make trim.

You still need to tells us what you had in mind in the way of the type of foundation, floor, sheeting, and to a lesser extent the roof style. And how big do you want to make this structure?

Hickory has limited application because it is difficult to dry straight and can be nearly impossible to drive a nail in. However, it makes a great floor for a shop. But drying it without a kiln and the machining necessary to turn the rough hickory into a nice flat floor is going to cost you.

Red oak can be used for 2x4's but it does shrink. And once dry is hard to drive a nail in. It's not very rot resistent so don't use it where it will get wet. It can be a challenge to hold in place while it's drying...so application and method rules are more important. If you wanted a 10' tall wall, and there was a knot in a 2x4, and the sheeting wasn't strong enought to hold it in place, you may find that the wall ends up with a bulge in it.

Cottonwood and pine sound pretty good for the 2x4's. Another local specie that is excellent is tulip (yellow) poplar. These species rot quickly and are not considered strong woods. But tulip (yellow) poplar also makes good B&B siding - just keep it away from the ground by 1' or more. You'll find that most of the very old barns around here were sided with white oak or tulip poplar.

White oak has some rot resistence. It dries so hard that nailing is a problem. A lot of old barns and houses were framed and sided with it. It's very strong.

Black locust is great but it's hard to dry and nearly impossible to nail without predrilling. Traditional uses for green construction were any place that would come in contact with water or ground: sills, posts, etc. This is also the wood that will move the least due to rewetting. But for good rot resistence when it's used in ground contact you need to remove all the bark, dry it at least one year, then alligator char the surface before sticking it in the ground.

I would consider the issues with sugar (hard) maple to be the same as the red oak above. But if it's red or silver maple (soft maples) I would consider them more like cottonwood. But I don't have much knowledge with their application in green building. It seems to me that silver maple would be the least desirable wood to use for green construction - it moves a lot while drying and it is hard to find straight grained logs.

Oscar · 01-18-2009, 02:28 PM

Most good books on Timber Framing offer a list or a suggestion on the most to least desirable wood to use in framing. Running the gament from concerns over undesirable movement, bug infestation, natural rates of decomposition, exposure to the elements etc.... . Nearly all framing is done with timbers/beams that wood be considered "Green" & to a lesser or greater extent they are but are not generally cut, milled and placed in an immediate fashion. Ours are cut perferably in late Fall to Mid-Winter, (White Pine & Bur Oak) milled to rough dimension then hand finished to desired demension and asthetic quality, laid on 8x10 ties and stickered for 6x8 weeks then used. THe pine moves a little and the oak more than a little

Timber style framing is akin to the saying about opinions, everyone has one (at Minimum). In days of old our anscetors were blessed with "Old Growth" forests that produce exceptional wood, but over the years we have had to sort of make do with what we have and have learned to find the best possible varieties and methods to build a lasting structures.

When I'm down south visiting family I always make a trip way back in the woods to see the Cabin my father was raised in. It was built in the early 1800's out of White/Black Jack Oak, Poplar and Pine. It looks way old but it's still there in all it's glory, being used as a storage shed but other than fixing the roof a few times over the years and according to my dad several beams were racked by a Tornado in 1930 and had to be replaced it's rock solid. My dad said the Cabins/Houses were generally cut over the fall and erected as soon as weather permitted in Spring generally by mid-April. I say this to make the point according to history we have changed little in our methods relative to handling of trees to timber! However, we have learned and changed a great deal when it comes to our understanding of how to best select and use the resources we have left. I'd encourge you to get some of the many books available onthe rendering of trees to timbers, beams and lumber. Makes for interesting reading and provides a valuable tool for the best use of one of our most valuable resources!

mdlbldrmatt135 · 01-18-2009, 03:03 PM

I rfamed and Sheathed my 12x24 shop with rough sawn SPF there was some cupping/splitting/twisting on the 1x10 boards and 1x3 battens. When I put the siding on I left a 8p nail gap between them and there's now roughly 1/2"

In All it's still fairly solid. the wood sat atleast a total of 4 months before the Shop was built. In hindsight the onyl thing I'd do different now is have premade trusses rather than framing them myself

ironhead · 01-18-2009, 11:29 PM

Will be going to the library soon and will see if they have any books on rendering logs and timber framing. Have been reading Hoadleys Understanding Wood and every page shows me just how little I know about it. I realize I have a LOT to learn but if I want to have a shop this year I need to get wood cut soon. Have access to old utility poles but few and far between so will use what few I can get for posts.

Was asked if I wanted these poplar logs but dont know if they are worth having sawed or not. Are there to many knots to make it worth while? Was just cut down yesterday.

**TexasTimbers** · 01-19-2009, 08:31 AM

I have no experience with Poplar so those may look normal, but they look like they might have metal stain unless that is normal for poplar.

Oscar · 01-19-2009, 12:57 PM

Theres likely some very beautiful wood in there but the avg sawyer wood be turned off by all the out-growths. Also, as TT says there is some apparent staining to be concerned about. I'd pass if I had to pay for their rendering but would be jazzed about it if they were mine, seeing how I have a mill and like the unusual! There have got to be better prospects in your area, I'd recommend you put the word out and maybe seek out sawyers in your area who like most right now are seeking work. You might find some excellent wood at good prices.

Oscar · 01-19-2009, 08:42 PM

I was going to say (about the history of kilns.) My Dad told me that in his youth working for the family mill, they used to make a wood fired kiln, or contraption to speed up the drying of certain loads as required by the buyers. He said they would dig a pit 4-6' deep, 10x10'/12x12' fill it half-way with wood, put 6x6 Oak timbers 8-10' tall every 4-6' around the pit, run 2x10 around the top to make a platform and then lay the lumber sticker it on top of the platform and fire the pit. After 8-10 hrs they'd turn all the lumber and re-fire the pit for another 8-10 hrs. If they were fortunate enough to have some corragated Tin laying about they'd line the outside of the pit to really contain the fire and heat. He said that 4/4-6/4 White Oak would be dry after two days of firing. He also said that on occasion they would lose most if not all the lumber because someone
(him frequently) would fall asleep and or get too houched on shine and pass out, forgeting to manage the fire and to turn the wood

dirtclod · 01-19-2009, 08:58 PM

I have milled a good bit of yellow poplar. It's my favorite local softwood. Ok, it's a hardwood - but I aint telling anyone else. It's heart is usually light green when freshly milled and will turn to a even lighter yellow-green or ranging from a tan to light brown. There's rare examples that will range from blue to purple to black. No matter the heart color, the ends will usually darken as pictured with exposure. So you can't tell by the color in poplar if there's metal in it - could be just mineral stains. Furniture builders don't normally value yellow poplar very much. But if it is dark due to mineral stains then it might be worth more than normal for furniture use. I just don't remember if it keeps the dark colors intact during drying. Yellow poplar typically grows tall and straight with lots of straight grained logs in the trunk. This one's too knotty for construction lumber...I'd pass.

Hey Daren! Looks like you need to make a log run.

**Daren** · 01-19-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtclod

Hey Daren! Looks like you need to make a log run.

Yep too knotty for construction lumber...sure would make some perty live edge slabs though

ironhead · 01-19-2009, 09:43 PM

Been trying to find sawyers and kiln operators in my area with no luck. The only sawyers in the phone book are the big boys that dont do custom milling or small jobs and no luck on kiln ops. Anybody have any ideas where I should be looking?