knotscott

I agree that this is a pretty intense first post, but I've followed the saga here and on Lumberjocks, and I really get the impression that this Mr. Raisch is sincere....at least from his perspective. He also seems well versed on dealing with businesses and issues. There's always a point of view from the other party, but it seems that Laguna's response fell somewhere between ambivalence, neglect, and at best, too little too late.

Note that my conclusions are just speculation based on what I've read, but in fairness, I've also read several success stories about Laguna tools. One thing that has surprised me about Laguna are the sheer number of other emphatic complaints about customer service issues, which lends some credibility to Mr. Raisch's story. These are not your run of the mill "HF and Sears sucks" type complaints about large volume inexpensive tools. Many of these are from seasoned veterans, with good tool knowledge, buying high end tools, who have a high level of credibility on various wwing forums. Laguna is a small company that likely sells a relatively low volume of tools compared to Delta, Grizzly, and PM, etc., yet the number of complaints I read about has been fairly high, and often very passionate much like this one. All this leads me to believe that there is a pervasive problem with far too many poorly resolved customer service issues at Laguna.

Nate1778

My thought on the matter after perusing the Lumberjocks site is there has to be a resolve. Companies screw up, sometimes more than once with the same person, people screw up. Things go south, its how we as human beings handle ourselves when they do. You must find a resolve with Laguna, these internet threads are not getting your cabinets done. Get with Laguna, come up with a resolve, even one that half way satisfies you and get it done. More than likely you will not find a resolve that will make you 100%, and your relationship with Laguna may be over, but at least its resolved. Seams with the threads posted here and even the one that is going on at LJ, Laguna has shown due dilligence in trying to get there problems worked out with their customers.

AGC-Aaron

ARaisch, I have read your entire post and do not really sympathize for you. Based on what you have said, you have no business sense. Its people like you that have helped run our economy into the ground.

With a business that manufactures equipment mostly to industrial companies, you have to expect some delay in service. By that I mean most companies that have purchased that kind of equipment already have a functioning workshop. The new machine would be an upgrade to save time, money and space. There is usually not a sense of urgency to solve the problem in a few hours. I'm not saying that they couldn't have handled your claim alittle better. There is definitely alot of set up time with a machine like that. (very similar to a robland x31)

Getting back to what I said in the beginning. This is way to much machine for your first piece of equipment based on the financial strain you stated. If you have the money then do what you want. If you don't then you live within your means until you can afford to make the upgrade. Just because you are a "professional" does not mean you purchase what you think is the top shelf in the beginning stages. When I do a job, I buy a tool related to the business, but you can't use all of your profit (not saying you are cause I don't know what the account was for) on a tool. I never finance equipment. Maybe the building its in, but not the tools in it unless you are making some serious money.

This sounds the same as the couple that buys a house that they can barely afford on a flexible interest rate and when the rate increases, they can't make their bills and lose their home

To sum this up: USE COMMON SENSE

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ARaisch

knotscott- Thanks for you post. I can assure you that I am sincere and wish to have this situation resolved as well. They, in my opinion, have not offered a resolution that will avoid costing me more time or money. When they do that I will take it.

My preference is to keep the machine but not if it will fail to work with continued accuracy and repeatability. I have told them this when I encountered the issues with the first machine. They then proceeded to sell me another machine without testing it to insure my criteria would be met.

AGC Aaron- I question the decision every day as to weather or not I should have made that investment. What it comes down to is this- every business must make an initial investment. Yours was space. If a client or clients fail(s) to pay you money for a job that you satisfactorally completed you would jeoperdise losing that space. Would you not? If you have a contract to make payments to the individual(s) who own that space than you would be breaching that contract and removed from that space. You could also have your credit tarnished. You would therfore be unjustly suffering because of another persons immoral behavior.

My investment was a combination machine. I thought long and hard before making that investment and researched the decision for almost a month. I entered into an agreement with a client with whom I had done work for before for $21,200.00. He also stated that he had paneling work for me to do sometime after the cabinets were finished. This is a multimillion dollar client and in the past when he wanted something done he did not hesitate to pay someone to do it. When I considered the profit on the cabinet job alone I realized that I would be alble to pay the majority of this machine off by the completion of the project and carry very little debt into the next job. I even discussed this with my sister-in-law who owns a successful organizing business and she agreed with the decission.

Concerning the house analogy, every day people are losing there job at no fault of there own. Not to mention the billions lost in retirement and investments. To make the assumption that individuals who have there house foreclosed on are not capable or did not make an intelligent decision is very shortsighted. These are unprecedented times and alot of people are suffering, not because of there own poor judgements but, because those businesses that they depended on were not conciderate of the individuals who relied on them as a customer or an employee. If you lost everything how long would you be able to stay in your house? Indefinitely?

In case you have not studied what happened with the housing market I will give you some insight. During the Clinton administration the government was putting preasure on lending institutions to give more loans. As a result these lending groups were making loans to people they otherwise would not have concidered. Even appraisers were being preasured by banks to inflate values on existing home sales (the appraiser on my house told me that). The lending did not just limit itself to the housing market. All credit companies felt the influence. I can remember during that time period how much mail I was getting asking me to apply for verious credit cards. As a result the market grew at an unnatural rate. In the market place supply was overly driven by a false assumption of inflated demand (the demand existed only because people AND BUSINESSES were spending money they did not have). That came to a head during the Bush administration. The government then decided to throw money at the situation. What do you think that will do? My guess is that it will perpetuate the unhealthy cycle!

Sorry for that long discertation but, I think people need to to hear it. A lot of wealthy greedy people are making this worse for people like me who just want to make a decent living by working hard and treating others with the respect that they deserve. The only way that is going to happen is to hold companies and other individuals accountable.

Nate1778- Let's assume that everything that I have said is true. Why is it that I should settle for less than 100% restitution. What have I done wrong? What have they done wrong?

TexasTimbers

ARaisch,

I finally read all of your LJ thread. I have sympathy for you in one way or another, and I have just as much sympathy for your aledged antagonists.

woodworkingtalk.com is a forum, but it is not a forum for you to use as your own personal Laguna-complaint forum, so don't extend it here please.

Work out your problems with Laguna, or go to a court of law which has the jurisdiction to resolve this issue.

In fairness to you I would also ask Laguna to not use our forum for their own purposes, in the unlikely event that they should even to try.

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ARaisch

TexasTimbers- up to this point i have appreciated your points of view and posting. I do not know if you are an owner of either forum. If you are then my appologies. If you are not then you have no business stating what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to be posted on these forums Once again if you wish not to read than no one is forcing you too.

Also I am asking for no ones sympathy and you either agree with me or with my antagonists so how you can sympothize with both is puzzling. Whatever you believe to accept as truth that is where your sympathy should reside. If you have doubts as to what is the truth then should make statement that reflect such a view and give neither your sympathy.

Nate1778

Then, lets do that, you don't settle on a resolution between the two of you. You end up going bankrupt, because your not able to complete a contract, and a guy like me buys the saw at auction for pennies on the dollar. What, you going to sue them, when was the last time you sued someone. Last time I had to sue a customer it cost a little over $3,000 to collect $5,000, started the process 3 years ago and the collection process just started. Good luck with your suite. I am pretty sure at this point Laguna is starting to think long and hard about a civil "libel" slander suite, I know I would. Just cause you stated it on the internet don't make it true, you have not presented any evidence to your claims nor have you won any agreement in a court of law, that my friend is "libel" slander. Its a civil matter, no big deal, except the lawyer you would need to hire to "defend" yourself may very well put you in bankruptcy proceedings. So lets say what your stating is true, your broke, you can't make a viable means to sustain life, what do you have at this point, a computer and some posts. You must realize even if your right, slander is slander. That is why you must find a resolve, the bottom line is Laguna will more than likely live through this, will you? I am not saying your wrong, but how long are you willing to hold off to prove your right? I think, and I am sure most guys that have a buisness would think, that cutting your nose off to spite your face is a good way to go belly up. You lick your wounds, you get it resolved (even if it doesn't make 100% whole) and you don't buy from them again. Your alternative is to sit around all day, post about your experience, meanwhile your customer is getting tired of hearing the excuse.



PS Actually TexasT does determine what is said on this forum, that's why the term "moderator" sits under his name. I would be a bit weary of supporting a thread on this subject on a forum you just joined for liability reasons.

AGC-Aaron

I'm confused. You say you have done work before for this client but you also said you just started business on 12/08. Maybe I missed something but my replies are only based on what I have read in your posts. I don't know you and you don't know me but it just seems like the choices your making were not thought out enough. That is what fueled my response. I can see how on the other hand you are not happy with your machine but I think you are making a mistake by brand bashing this way.

As far as the economy. I never said that I blame the people for losing their jobs. I merely said that certain people who made a bad decision by strapping themselves into a mortgage they really can't afford and losing their house because they didn't account for rate fluctuation, would be losing their house whether the economy was bad or not. People like that are hurting our economy because the banks get stuck with these houses. Sometimes they can make back what they lost buy selling them at auction but not now when some house's are selling for $1000 because nobody wants them (Chicago) Hence, the bank bailout!

I don't need a lecture on how the economy works. My business along with many others are piggyback to the economy. When its good, its good, when it bad, its bad.

I also have not been around this forum very long and it seems like all my posts are in some way negative. First impressions are key and I don't think either one of use are giving a positive vibe for a woodworking forum Maybe we should lighten up

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TexasTimbers

I am not the owner of this forum. I am a moderator but also a member. Even if I were not a moderator I would still "have business" giving my opinion just as much you would.

As a moderator I have no authority to establish "what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to be posted on these forums." Those guidelines have already been set by the administrator (owner) of this forum in the form of what are called Posting Rules (PR's). Our job as mods regarding posts that members make is simply to make sure the PR's are followed, and if they are not then we have clearly defined authority, not broad sweeping authority, to make the member aware of the PR they are in violation of, and give them the opportunity to avoid it in the future.

IMO you have not technically violated any of the rules. However, the Administartor has given the mods some discretionary authority where issues may arise that are not clearly defined. IMO you joined this forum for the sole purpose of using it as leverage against Laguna Tools. I realize you have stated you just want others to be aware so as not to get burned by them as well. Had you made a post or two in that vein then your claim would be believable, however no one can read this thread and reach the conclusion that that's your true purpose.

I informed you that the purpose of this forum is not one as a mediation or arbitration tool for dissatisfied customers of woodworking tool manufacturers. You are asserting by you your blatant use of it that way, that it is. I am trying to reslove our differences of opinion about this in a civil and constructive way. The same thing you should be doing with Laguna Tools.

If you choose not to comply I think it's just a further illustration of why you have not been able to resolve your differences with Laguna. If the attitude you have with me is the same one you have adopted while trying to negotiate with Laguna then it is clear at least to me why this bizarre fiasco has grown into the circus it has.

I will ask you one more time, please do not continue to use this forum solely for this purpose. Go to the intro section and introduce yourself. Participate as a member, then feel free to update this thread with the facts occassionally as needed. Sound fair?

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Nathan

He's not the owner but he is a moderator and trying to enforce our posting rules and look out for the best interest of the site. For such a new member your not really holding back are ya?

We had this problem a few months back on DIYChatroom.com. New members would come to our site just to bash a product and try to cause harm to the company. We finally had to prohibit new members from giving product reviews and redefine what a "Review" is. You can read the thread here: This is a how to site, not a why I hate this product site

I'm going to make the same stand here. This is a Woodworking site, not a Why I Hate This Product site. New members should get involved in the community and have some posting record behind them before posting a product review. Otherwise there is really no weight behind what your saying and the idea of a community is lost.
Also, when you give a product review you should have some positives, negatives, photos, and real world use included.

In short, when a new member joins a site just to rant and bash a company or product it's hard to take it seriously and it's not what this site is about. I'm going to close this thread now and hopefully you can get involved in the real topic of this site.

Thanks.

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Nathan

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot