Table Leg/Apron M&T - loose tenons - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum

 5Likes
  • 1 Post By GeorgeC
  • 1 Post By woodnthings
  • 1 Post By Toolman50
  • 1 Post By tobyshanks
  • 1 Post By TimPa
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 03:57 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 127
View TimeTurnsElastic's Photo Album My Photos
Table Leg/Apron M&T - loose tenons

1 3/4" square table legs. I plunge routed 1/2" deep mortises with a 3/8" spiral upcut bit and formed the apron tenons accordingly. Not sure where I went wrong but my tenons are a bit loose. Dry fitted I'm getting some side to side wobble. My question is two fold:

1) how to tighten up those tenons. Some glue and sawdust? Glue a little sliver to one or both sides of the tenons? I really butchered this one up, not a full 16th of slop, but a good 1/32"+ I'd say

2) suggestions on getting a nice square glue up? I suspect this will be a little easier once I'm able to snug up my m&t joints but could still use some beginners advice on order of operations, and any other tips to ensure my inside corners are as square as possible during the clamping process. FYI I have some of those Bessey adjustable angle clamps but my inside corner braces (4/4 maple) would interfere. Is establishing square with the angle clamps and then fastening the corner blocks after the glue's dried a bit, a terrible idea? I've got plenty of pipe clamps just not sure the best way to clamp them home without tweaking the whole assembly. Hope this makes any sense. Thanks!

Thanks in advance!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TimeTurnsElastic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 06:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 9,532
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
l am assuming that by saying "loose tenons" you do not mean that you are using loose tenons in this project. Rather, that the tenons that you made are loose. If you were using loose tenons you would just make new ones.

Making the glue up with two part epoxy would be one way to solve the problem. You could also glue thin strips of wood to each side of the tenon and then reshape the tenon.

I would glue up the sides in each corner before adding the corner blocks/braces. There are several methods of making sure the corners are square. If you search for "how to glue up corners square" you will get lots of pictures.

George
TimeTurnsElastic likes this.
GeorgeC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GeorgeC For This Useful Post:
TimeTurnsElastic (04-19-2017)
post #3 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 11:41 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 20,892
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
loose tenons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeTurnsElastic View Post
1 3/4" square table legs. I plunge routed 1/2" deep mortises with a 3/8" spiral upcut bit and formed the apron tenons accordingly. Not sure where I went wrong but my tenons are a bit loose. Dry fitted I'm getting some side to side wobble. .... Thanks in advance!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK, how? If your plunge router did not vary/wiggle while making a 3/8" wide mortise ... that's good. If it did, that's bad. Which is it?

How did you make the tenons, as part of the apron or "loose" as in separate? If they are part of the apron, how were they made? With a tenoning jig on the table saw, on the bandsaw or some other method?

Epoxy will fill small voids, unlike yellow glue. Without knowing how the tenons were made, or if the mortises are slightly oversize, it's gonna be tough to come up with a solution for you other than 2 part epoxy....

Photos?

I make my mortises using a plunge router and a centering jig. THEN I make my tenons to fit snugly on the bandsaw, testing the fit as I go on a scrap, before using the project wood. ... FYI
TimeTurnsElastic likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specfic. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo

Last edited by woodnthings; 04-19-2017 at 11:47 AM.
woodnthings is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to woodnthings For This Useful Post:
TimeTurnsElastic (04-19-2017)
 
post #4 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 12:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 2,176
View Toolman50's Photo Album My Photos
Depending on just how loose the tenon is, there are multiple ways of making a "fix".
If there is enough room, I would insert a shim the width of the tenon. This shim would be thin, less than half the thickness of an ice cream stick.
If the space is too narrow for a shim, then I would use either the glue and sawdust or epoxy as a fix.
We feel you pain. It is always a bummer when we cut a tenon too small. But it happens. A lot!
TimeTurnsElastic likes this.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
Toolman50 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Toolman50 For This Useful Post:
TimeTurnsElastic (04-19-2017)
post #5 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 12:35 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
View tobyshanks's Photo Album My Photos
Epoxy with thickener will do the job, or add veneers to fit the gaps around the tenon end and use whatever glue you would like. Or glue a tight block in the mortice and reroute it. As for gluing up square there are numerous examples on the net, whichever seems appropriate and works for your clamps.

Sent from my E5603 using Tapatalk
TimeTurnsElastic likes this.
tobyshanks is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to tobyshanks For This Useful Post:
TimeTurnsElastic (04-19-2017)
post #6 of 9 Old 04-19-2017, 02:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NW Pa
Posts: 2,037
View TimPa's Photo Album My Photos
you can go deeper than 1/2" for starters.


to tighten, I would wrap the tenon in grocery bag (the old paper kind) and glue. test fit how much you will need. then when fully inserted and clamped well, drill for a 3/8" dowel pin or 2. you can drill from the inside to hide, or outside to show. I don't drill all the way through, but definitely make sure to drill to the back layer.
woodnthings likes this.
TimPa is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TimPa For This Useful Post:
TimeTurnsElastic (04-19-2017)
post #7 of 9 Old 04-20-2017, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 127
View TimeTurnsElastic's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks guys for taking the time to offer suggestions.

George, correct, they are not loose tenons, but loosely fitting. I think like you and others have said, gluing some strips around the tenons and then reshaping might be my best bet. For the corner braces when you say glue the sides first then add the braces, do you mean let it dry before screwing in the braces?

Considering 2-part epoxy. Does anyone have brand recommendations? Would I use the epoxy on top of shims/strips, or in lieu of, with the assumption that it will fill gaps?

Has anyone used Mohawk Epoxy Putty Sticks? I bought a stick in walnut color to use for repairing some small dings, but I'm wondering if it may actually work for this repair as well, being it's also a 2 part epoxy that can be sanded and shaped. Would this work? If I used it to reform the tenons would it create a strong joint using Titebond? Or would I apply it and mate the m&t's before it hardens?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TimeTurnsElastic is offline  
post #8 of 9 Old 04-21-2017, 07:12 AM
Senior Member
 
allpurpose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 599
View allpurpose's Photo Album My Photos
I've never used a router for cutting mortises, just a good sharp chisel and mallet.. The Tenons can be cut in a variety of ways from table saw and jig to hand sawn then cleaned up with the chisel.
Paul Sellers has several videos on the subject well worth watching and practicing.

One advantage of hand cutting tenons is it's easy to kind of sneak up on the correct thickness. If it's too thick just shave away bit by bit until you have a perfect fit..
There's something to be said about practicing certain techniques on inexpensive lumber till you feel confident about using the techniques on more expensive lumber.
I probably made 10-15 tenon and mortise joints with scraps of pine before I ever tried using it on anything I built..
As for fixing your problem..draw pins perhaps..just a dowel tapped into the shoulder of your tenon and mortise offset just a hair, about 1/16th.. or you can wedge the ends of the tenons..
I built my workbench with 8 separate tenons, all hand cut. I've never had the first bit of wobble and I didn't use any glue or pins.. I did manage to smack the crap out of my finger with a mallet along the way which kind of flattened that fingernail pretty much permanently.. lol

I figured it's time to change my signature so hold your breath. This is it.
Impressive, huh?

Last edited by allpurpose; 04-21-2017 at 07:22 AM.
allpurpose is offline  
post #9 of 9 Old 04-21-2017, 08:04 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 20,892
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Still no answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
OK, how? If your plunge router did not vary/wiggle while making a 3/8" wide mortise ... that's good. If it did, that's bad. Which is it?

How did you make the tenons, as part of the apron or "loose" as in separate? If they are part of the apron, how were they made? With a tenoning jig on the table saw, on the bandsaw or some other method?

Epoxy will fill small voids, unlike yellow glue. Without knowing how the tenons were made, or if the mortises are slightly oversize, it's gonna be tough to come up with a solution for you other than 2 part epoxy....

Photos?

I make my mortises using a plunge router and a centering jig.
THEN I make my tenons to fit snugly on the bandsaw, testing the fit as I go on a scrap, before using the project wood. ... FYI
Here's my plunge router jig for making mortises and making them very quickly, and making them uniformly and cleanly ....


It's aadjustable for different width boards and self centers because to the parallelogram design:


You use stops made of clamped blocks to control the lengths and the depth is controlled on the step rod on the base:





The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specfic. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo
woodnthings is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
farm table, loose joints and moisture content questions desertsp Design & Plans 5 02-05-2017 11:21 AM
Build Your Own Router Table treewok2512 Power Tools & Machinery 19 10-05-2016 09:19 PM
Add a jig saw table to your table saw pbriggs8 Power Tools & Machinery 5 06-20-2016 12:20 AM
Wolfcraft 6157 router table. dbhost Tool Reviews 2 10-02-2015 07:22 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome