Buffalo Bilious

Good stuff there, check it out.. you'll have some fun.

Dvoigt

That JET is now $700.... just a few hundred more to go. I want to email the guy but he doesn't have an email address, only phone number and I don't really want to call him to say "call me if you slash your price again."

TexasTimbers

knotscott you make alot of good poiints. I do have to disagree on the power issue. The issue of HP is well worn on all the forums and you'll have no lack of finding owners who have stepped up to bigger saw (even 2 HP) after having used a 1 1/2HP contractors saw for years who say things like wow! I wish I had known the differnece 20 years sgo!"

But I also don't want to say the smaller saws are to be avoided altogether. They have there place and can tackle most of what a hobbyist will throw at it.

A sharp blade is a must on any HP saw. But it will not make a 1 1/2HP cut like a 2HP saw. It will make a 1 1/2HP saw cut like a 1 1/2HP saw is supposed to cut in the first place.

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knotscott

OK...I'll accept your disagreement "uncontested"! .

Ken Johnson

Keep in mind guys, there is no standard for rating HP so using HP as a baseline to rate saws is a bit unfair. I have a 1 1/2 HP Ridgid contractors saw which I am thrilled with. I bought it after I saw a review that Wood magazine did on mid priced table saws. The Ridgid was the top performer over several 2 HP models. To even the playing field they put Freud thin kerf blades on all models tested. Then they fabricated a crosscut sled that was pulled through the blade with weights. Using identical weights for all saws they timed each saw in resawing a 2" thick piece of maple. In the end the Ridgid was the best. The moral of the story is; don't judge a book by it's HP rating, or something like that.

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Ken

"What we hope ever to do with ease, we must first learn to do with diligence".
- Samuel Johnson

TexasTimbers

There's no contest here.

I think alot of well-meaning woodworkers repeat what they have heard for years, to the newer guys coming in, to " . . .just get a sharp blade and it will cut as well as a 3HP saw!" etc.

Really that's the point I wanted to make most. That the HP rating will not increase, and the saw will have no more power simply by saying a sharp blade is the secret to using a low HP saw "to tackle practically anything" etc.

Of course, if you don't maintain your blade and have it sharpened when necessary, a dull blade will definately lower the performance of the saw and the duller the blade the more dramatic the decrease in cutting efficiency. I bet we can all agree on that.

I ain't knocking smaller saws. I just like to keep it in perspective. A talented craftsman can put out fine furniture that looks as good as anything coming out of a shop with a monster table saw. All I am saying is that sometimes, most guys are gonna have a need to run alot of thick hardwood through a table saw. Some do it moreoften than others. If a saw has 3HP and a WoodWorker II blade on it, it will cut the wood alot faster and easier than a 1 1/2 HP saw with the same blade, be easier on both the saw and the sawyer, but both saws will do it. You can even cut 4" thick 2 year air dried hickory on that 1 1/2 HP saw (or even a 10" benchtop saw if you are relly commited!) if the need arises. You might need to make 2 or 3 passes on each side but you can do it.

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knotscott

I remember that comparison...just for clarity, they used a full kerf LU84 combo blade, not a TK. I remember it b/c I was surprised they didn't do the same test with a TK also...b/c depending on pulley ratios and the motor response itself, some saws respond better to TK's than full kerf. Yep...HP "claims" are not an absolute and tend to mean very little, unless all the other variables are identical.

Ken Johnson

I would say that they mean very little EVEN IF all the other variables are identical. That being said, although the Ridgid outperformed several 2HP machines, I'm sure there are many more 2HP machines that would outperform the Ridgid 1.5HP. All I'm saying is that there is some crossover due to the lack of industry standards.

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Ken

"What we hope ever to do with ease, we must first learn to do with diligence".
- Samuel Johnson

knotscott

I agree. We're an easily marketed society who likes easy "wow" factors like "HP", and "watts", etc... so we get them in spades! (... I wonder how many blades the next generation of Gillette and Schick razors will have! ) There are ton of influencing factors in "power" that have little do with the motor at all...and as Tex points out, the smaller motors are more sensitive to those. But I know alot of people who've been able to cut whatever they needed with them regardless.

TexasTimbers

When they came out with the Mach III shaver i thought well now we have seen the maximum largesse we can squeeze into marketing a "disposable" shaver now. But recently I have seen where they now have Quad! Four blades one right after the other!he first three are relatively useless so they needed to add a fourth to do what the other 3 were unable to do.

I still usea Bic single disposable that I think they quit making. It's simply called "Bic Metal" or something. When our Wal Mart was out of them about 2 years ago i asked if they had any in the back. She said she thought they were going to quit making them. I loaded up on them everywhere I went for the next couple weeks when I could find them. I bought the whole rack full when a Wal Mart I was in had them. I still have well over 100 packs I bet, with twelve razors in each pack.

I never have even looked to see if she was right or not. They might still be making them.

I just know i like that razor more than any other I have tried. I got a Mach III for Christmas or a birthday one year but did not like it. Not only did it not shave any closer than my cheapos, but they are so big they won't fit all the way up into that little zone underneath the nose cause they are too big, so you end up with a small cluster of hairs that escape the blades everytime.

Table saws and disposable razors have alot in common maybe.

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Ken Johnson

TT,

You'll think I'm nuts but you really have to try the Gillette Fusion (5 blades). I know it sounds excessive but I have never had a closer shave. The blades are also closer together so you get less razor burn. Wow, was that a diversion from the original topic

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Ken

"What we hope ever to do with ease, we must first learn to do with diligence".
- Samuel Johnson

Tweegs

Would love to get into a cabinet saw, but promised the Mrs. I wouldn't until we move. For now, I use a Forrest WWII 20 tooth to get through the thicker stuff on my contractor saw.
It's no replacement for HP, but it helps.

TexasTimbers

Tweegs, I have ruffled some feathers with my HP discussions before and contrary to what some may believe, on my solemn word my intention is never to come across as a know-it-all, or "pious", or to even slight in any way woodworkers who use smaller saws. but it always does seem to come across that way to someone in the end. I think everyone involved in the discussion this time actually understtod me and did not get offended! That is a credit only to those who discussed the issue ina civil manner and I take my hat off to everyone for not thinking i was trying to say "Big horses rule! Small saws suck!" That's certainly never my point.

But as you are already aware, maybe from using one, once someone uses a big heavy saw with lots of HP, the discussion is over. I have never ever heard one single WWer say "I wish I had my old smaller saw back".
Having said all that, my old 1947 Oliver which weighs a ton and has gobs of power to spare, is too much saw alot of the times and I need a smaller saw to do little jobs. So every shop needs the proper tool for the job.

If you search the archives here and elsewhere on the net though, you will almost always, if not always, find where I have tried to make the point to someone who is asking about what table saw to get, is that I try and suggest to get the most saw, and that includes HP, that they can fit in their budget. That has to be balanced against specific needs i.e. some guys are looking for a saw that has the option of a router table with it or to add later, some that is not important at all. So HP might not be the primary issue to everyone.

In the end, I will alawyas be lieve that any WWer who uses a 3HP saw for a wekk, and a 1 1/2 HP saw for a week, all other thngs being equal, they are going to opt for more horses. It's just something that has to be experienced for a while. It's sort of arcane but you just know when their is power to spare when you are usiing a saw whether you know how many horses it has or not. It's a feeling. And it feels good.

When I bought my huge cabinet saw I could not have afforded a $4000 saw (this model was discontinued in 1996 or 1997 it sold for around $10,000 and there was a waiting list). I was tipped off about it by an online acquaintance. It was being sold by a Universirtty in Tennessee in a Tenn State auction that was not advertised etc. My winning bid for it was somewhere around $650 can't remember the exact amount now.
i would have gotten it for less but the instructor who had used it all those years bid against me because he said something to the effect "It was a shame to see such a saw go so cheap. I wish I could have afforded myself."

So in the future I might need to ban myself from these "What kind of table saw should I get" conversations because I don't believe I have a totally unbiased perspective any longer. This thing is a 230V 3 phase beast with a 16" blade, with what is equivalent to a 7HP motor today.

But of course we all are biased one way or another to some degree.

Ken, I can't imagine a closer shave than what I get with my bic but another reason I like it so much it is small enough to get into that tight area right underneath my nose/top lip area.

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Dvoigt

OK what about this one? the price is right although I feel like it is a cheap saw...

http://detroit.craigslist.org/tls/513174617.html

thanks for all your help

Joe Lyddon

Yes, it IS a cheap saw. The BT-3100 is better, but STILL an inexpensive saw. Sold by Home Depot... check them out.

I have the BT-3100... I liked it alot until my fence to blade alignment went off by an overall 1/16" (due to my operator error by loosening one clamp in error)... I have to realign it...

I LOVE the sliding miter table (SMT)... it is a dream to use.

I also recently restored a 1963 contractor saw which I like.

If I were to start all over again, I would go for a Cabinet Type saw that I could still use on 115 or 220 (currently on 115), probably in the 2HP area with a GOOD fence and easy to use adjustments for angle & ht. ... much like the Jet or Delta Hybrid... and after getting that, I would probably wish I had went for the Unisaw type saw and get it over with!

I would not get the BT-3000.

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Joe Lyddon
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knotscott

That's a BT3000, the predecessor to Joe's BT3100. It can be made to work well, and the parts are worth well more than $100 if in good shape, so there's really no downside in the deal....

Dvoigt

The jet is down another 100 from the initial offering... i might just call the guy.

Gerry KIERNAN

Just my two cents worth: If you find a saw you really like, and it has long extension rails, but no router attach table, it would be pretty easy to build yourself a table to fit between the rails. The ryobi, for the price is a decent deal. You will probably outgrow it eventually, but for a starter saw I don't see where you can go wrong.

Gerry

Joe Lyddon

Just got a Popular Woodworking email with a good article on Hybrid Table Saws, etc. Thought it may help here...

http://links.mkt230.com/servlet/Mail...NTcyMjAS1&mt=1

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Joe Lyddon
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Dvoigt

I went and looked at that Jet because it was close to my work. That is a pretty saw.... it had really never been used, he had a few extra blades and the mobile base... it ran super nice and smooth too. But it was still a little more then i was ready to spend. It was real nice and I wanted it... I told him that I would have to think about if i could pull the extra money together. I decided to bit the bullet and buy it and less then 30 minutes later I called him back to say that I would take it... and he told me that he just sold it!

BUMMER! back to the drawing board.