Dvoigt

So I was having discussions with people that aren't into wood working at all... and they question why buying a exoict or more expensive piece of lumber to make something when you could buy cheaper lumber (pine or maple) and just stain it....

My only argument is that figure and gain of the wood it what you are looking for. But that isn't enough to sway some people off of a 2x or 3x price tag.

Why buy a piece of mahogany when I can buy a piece of pine and stain it a mahogany color? Is it all about the grain? And do people stain exotics to change the color? I always like the thought of buying the nice wood and just using the natural color.

stuart

yes different strokes for different folks.

The grains, me thinks, are the big shot in the woods collections.
Clearly some people think in cheap terms and most likely have very little collection or a lack or variety. Cost is clear important.
but if you gonna pass the collection [even if you didn't make it] then it makes sense to get the grains and what nots on some "REAL" wood.

Johnathan Wilkinson

Man!?

What I wouldn't give for a nice pice of oak (even Welsh oak), pine, ash, beech or what ever you've got.

Here in Indonesia we're stuck with crappy Mahogony, Jati, Wadang, Kamper and what have you.

Having said that, Balau is completely un-nailable (mind-numbingly hard) while Ingas is structurally strong..... but so toxic that I was covered in sores for months!

Gimme' the wood of my home counrty -- I understand it.

J

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Knot Home

The choice of wood for a project is not only about how it looks. Hardwoods are far more durable than softwoods like pine. It depends on what kind of use (or abuse) a piece will see in its lifetime, and how long that lifetime is expected to be. An heirloom that may be handed down through generations had better be made out of something with some staying power. Oak, walnut, cherry, and other hardwoods stand up to the rigors of time and use. On the other hand, a piece that doesn't expect to see a decade go by can be made out of cheaper materials. Basically, you get out of a piece what you put into it.

Aesthetics also come into play. It's hard to beat what God grows. A finely figured gunstock or jewelry box in walnut can be a treasure to behold. Hardwoods can be polished to a fine gloss all by themselves, even with no additional finish, or just wax. Too, stains or dyes applied with artistry can make a piece truly unique, and they're not just for cheap grades of wood either. There's an art to that whole end of woodworking that can take a lifetime to master.

Roy

Boardman

Dvoigt - Those people who think you should just use pine and stain it are the same kind of barbarians who have lawn flamingoes, think having cheese on their Whopper is "fine dining," and are pro wrestling fans. Utter savages.....

If they ask that question, they could not possibly understand the answer.

Daren

I would like to add more, but that will suffice.

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TexasTimbers

yep, you can lead a pig to a rose garden, but he's just gonna rut around looking for a mud hole.

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mmwood_1

What a subject!

Different wood has different qualities. Those qualities are sometimes functional, sometimes aesthetic. Many woods have subtle beauties in them which are unique from other species. One need not import rain forest woods to see this. Figured eastern cherry is hard to beat, and no amount of staining pine (or any other wood) will get a piece to look like cherry. Except to the people who don't ''see" the difference between one sort of wood and another. They only "see" the general color scheme. They WOULD be content with stained pine, and that's ok for them. My parents are that way. My siblings, too.

We're not all the same, you know. I couldn't for the life of me tell you why someone would spend $30,000 on a car when you can get a perfectly good used one for $2,000. But there you are.

Personally, I NEVER use stain except to match existing work. I just don't believe in it. You can put the best stain job in the world on pine and it will still look like pine. With a stain job. Besides, any time you put a stain on wood, you hide some of the subtler beauty within it.

As far as heirloom quality goes, tell the Amish and the Shakers that pine won't hold up. I think there are plenty of very old and highly prized pieces from those quarters which WERE made of pine.

Regarding pine being 'cheap' wood, that depends where you live. Clear cabinet grade pine is NOT cheap here.

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mkwoodworks

I just finished a circular staircase (45step) in Cherry only to have the main contractor have it stained in ebony Minwax. So depressing I don't even care to take pictures.

Daren

Indeed. But in all fairness the pine they used was radically different from what is readily available today. There is nothing wrong with an old growth heart pine board, all wood species have there place in wood working. Put a chain store fast grown plantation pine board next to the kind of wood you are talking about and the difference is (should be ) quite noticeable. I think the lawn flamingo crowd Boardman is talking about would not know the difference, they just want cheap...and cheap is what they get.

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arkyrick

Dvoight I think those kind of people probably buy their furniture at Wal Mart
You know the kind they think the oak grain coffee table in their living room is beautiful, the one with oak colored wall paper glued over MDF

LarrySch

I think the 'anti-pine' mindset is off base. You think about all of the beautiful furniture that has ever been built out of pine, and you'll start to wonder why it isn't used any more than it already is.
It does splinter and can dent - those would be two problems with it, but just about every hardwood has some downside while working with it.
Maybe it's just a snobbish attitude - pine is for rednecks - but on a very fixed income - I look at the beautiful hard woods, (and mind you sometimes I do use hardwood,) and the price difference - I fondle those woods, and usually go back to select pine or popular. The difference even in Oak against select pine is so much - two boards I purchased a few day ago - Oak vs. select pine - pine was $44.00 and the Oak - was double that - well sadly I had to go with the SP.
Isn't this so true of the people today - we just live in a throw away world -
You fellow woodworkers who think pine is only for the rednecks of this country truly have no idea of the abilities or the needs of our fellow woodworkers - myself included. I bet there is more pine used for projects that you think there are or would care to admit.

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Daren

Kiln dried oak is $1.75 bft ($2.00 tops) at the mill in my area. I don't deal in oak much,so I sent a customer who was looking 80 miles south to another mill and he bought 1000 bft of kiln dried 1/4 sawn oak (10"+ wide, most 12") for $750 . I gotta ask, where are you buying your wood ?

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Daren

I gotta add to. If you are building a pine table, cool. I personally don't have a prejudice against pine, I just prefer many (OK most) other woods over it. But a pine table is a pine table...a pine table that is stained mahogany(for example) and sold as "mahogany finish" like that makes it better is just reverse of the truth. I think that was the original point of the thread ?

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Capt Crutch

WHAT??!!??!!??

QS OAK FOR 75¢/BF????

Here in Virginia there's a LOT of white oak (OK, not as nice as the stuff up north but still) and the best price I'm finding for SLAB sawn 4/4 is maybe $2.75/bf and that's from a sawmill.

I can get all the loblolly (yellow) pine you want for 60¢/bf but to think I could get QS WO for only 25% more is making me ummmmmmmm a bit envious.

dpmcreations

I would like to know where he is getting his wood from as well.... Prices like that are unheard of even where I grew up "up North"... Not too mention down here in the Sunshine state..

On the subject of wood... Really you need to look at what your customer is expecting of the piece that you are making.... If they are looking for a "cheap" piece then that is what they want.. But you might want to see if they would consider an upgrade at a reasonable cost... Poplar is a great hardwood... and maple... It isn't the cheapest thing in the world... But enough...

Actually one of the things with people that question you like that is a good education... Educating them on the different types of wood and their properties (durability, strength, color, etc.) goes a long way in helping everyone out including yourself as a woodworker....

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LarrySch

Daren - Oak here is about the best lumber you can purchase, in my area without driving 100+ miles, I have to stay with the box stores, Home Depot and Lowe's. The only lumber yard here that sells select lumber - walnut, maple, ect. and that includes Oak - is so expensive that I can not even walk in the door. Wood that a lot of woodworks throw away - would be prime lumber for me. (Idaho) I watched a fellow woodworker -(Lives in Washington) burn burr wood and walnut in his fire place. I wanted to cry.

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Larry

" have you hugged your pet today"

Daren

That is a bummer, {mental note to self-never move to Idaho}. A guy was here last week buying walnut boards like this for $5 bft.

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End Grain

Pine is no doubt what most people are most familiar with. It's easier to work with, more forgiving, more amenable to the weekend warrior or screw-banger and it looks okay in most cases. For many of us, one or two pieces of leftover pine board were intergral to the homemade "toys" of our youth.

Other woods, though stronger, more stable, better-grained, richer, nicer-looking, etc., are more expensive, often require much more patience and time to work with, demand a better understanding of wood and associated techniques, better and sharper tools and are overall much less forgiving. It's all relevant to the level of expectations, the time required and the price one is willing to pay. Many people are simply too thrifty? frugal? cheap? to pay for the better woods and the superior craftsmanship.

There are certainly enough Chevrolets and Fords sold each year to answer the question "Why would anyone in their right mind NOT want to buy and drive a much better vehicle than either of those?"

Me personally, I wouldn't touch either brand with a ten foot pole, let alone spend my hard earned money on one. And, if given one as a prize, I'd sell it and use the money as a down payment towards a decent vehicle. (JK, JK)

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LarrySch

Wow - what I would not give to have some lumber like that. $5 a BF - The lumber below - from a mill here in Idaho went for $18 to $25 dollars a board foot and that is as you see it below.

Try living on a fixed income that the Social Security (21 years in law enforcement and I get $1080 per month,) allows and see if thrifty, frugal or cheap enters into the purchasing of these finer woods. Would I use the finer woods if possible, you bet, would love to - but the necessities of life over rides my hobby - and yes I do drive the cheaper vehicle - a GMC pickup - but then again you go with what you can afford. (Sorry for the heated reply.)

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Larry

" have you hugged your pet today"