Face Frame Design - Woodworking Talk

cabinetman · 03-18-2009, 05:04 PM

From the following plans for face frame design, discuss your choices of configuration. It may be beneficial if you include your reasoning for applications with or without doors. For whatever plan you discuss, include how you would treat stiles that were dividers for the front of the cabinet. In other words, whether they would butt to the top and bottom rails, or run the vertical length and having the rails butt into them.

Plan A
Outside stiles: Run vertically the length of the side of the cabinet.
Top and bottom rails: Butt in between the side stiles.

Plan B
Outside stiles: Run in between the top and bottom rails.
Top and bottom rails: Run the width of the cabinet.

Plan C
Rails and stiles are mitered at the four corners.

rrbrown · 03-18-2009, 05:28 PM

I would use option A any dividers woud but between top and bottom rails.
1st - The ends would have a more finished look by running the legth of the cabinet sides, the Middle dividers would provide support for the upper rail

2nd - I was taught this way so it looks correct to me, this also seems like the easier way to build the frames, Miters seam harder to keep a tight fit and I believe would be weaker. Option B wouldn't look finished if the top and bottm rails showed end grain especially if it was a end cabinet.

Ok cabinetman whats up you testing people or what?

Gene Howe · 03-18-2009, 05:50 PM

Option B. Option A leaves the ends showing.
For some reason...dunno why...I don't like the look of mitered corners on face frames or cabinet doors.

GeorgeC · 03-18-2009, 06:07 PM

?????????

Are you answering a question that someone asked? What was the question?

Gene, why/how does option A leaves the ends showing?

G

raskgle · 03-18-2009, 06:32 PM

plan a leaves open ends b and this is where the answer is it's the way it has always been done and we all fight change. Carl

Tom5151 · 03-18-2009, 06:39 PM

Isn't plan A saying that the end of the rail is butted up against the inside edge of the stile? If that's the case I am not sure how the end of the rail would be showing? Unless i am completely misunderstanding.

woodnthings · 03-18-2009, 07:53 PM

If I read you right, here's what I think you are saying. My vote is for A, because in B the ends show from the sides. C is ok, and I done this when I don't have stile and rail profilers/cutters. You can just use a flat 1/4" panel inserted in a groove...if you don't need to have a raised panel.

bill

Rob · 03-18-2009, 08:13 PM

I do Plan A. Vertical dividers are butted between the top/bottom rails. Horizontal dividers are butted between the side stiles.

Gene Howe · 03-18-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeC

?????????

Are you answering a question that someone asked? What was the question?

Gene, why/how does option A leaves the ends showing?

G

I got cornfuzed. No biggie...happens all the time.
Went back and re read the question. "A" is now my answer.
Before you ask...no, I do not work for the

government.

RussBoyd · 03-18-2009, 09:31 PM

rrbrown right on. Plan A all the way.

firehawkmph · 03-18-2009, 10:55 PM

I use plan a. I don't like plan b, showing the ends of the horizontal rails. I would probably never consider plan c either. I am not a mitered door fan or a mitered faceframe fan either. Just my .o2..
Mike Hawkins

Alright Cabinetman, wasssssss uppppppa widdda disssssa? You have us all in suspense.

scribbles · 03-18-2009, 11:28 PM

Dam conformists, I run the sides in a staged lap joint. Left into top, top into right, right into bottom. That is how the big dogs do it.

woodnthings · 03-18-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scribbles

Dam conformists, I run the sides in a staged lap joint. Left into top, top into right, right into bottom. That is how the big dogs do it.

I agree laps joints rule! But my impression was that this was more of an appearance issue..Having given it a little more thought, the door construction would probably dictate the face frame detail.
1/2 laps would look like "A" from the front, but have 1/2 thickness ends showing from the side as in "B". Not sure what a "staged" lap joint is, but possibly not visible from the side?? For us "little dogs" out here could you explain further?...

bill

scribbles · 03-19-2009, 12:40 AM

I was just being a smartass, and made a random answer.

I use B that is what I was taught by my grandfather, never really thought about it before.

cabinetman · 03-19-2009, 01:42 PM

In woodworking our personal tastes may direct our methods. For the way rails and stiles are laid out for doors, there may be more than an aesthetic reason to having full length stiles and butted rails.

The stile carries the forces of opening and closing the whole length of the door, not just to the top and bottom rails. Having butted rails gets the joint further from the hinges. Visually, for overlay doors, and having full stiles, the endgrain is visible from the top, and not from the side as it would be if the rails ran through. There doesn't seem to be complaints about the engrain showing from the top. For a full inset door, it wouldn't matter much until the door gets opened.

For faceframe configuration, the common practice is to have the stiles run the full length. Doing this, and the same layout for the doors gives some continuity to the look from the front for however much faceframe shows.

For situations where the ends of the cabinet don't show, like in a three wall alcove, and the width is narrow, full length rails may give more width to the look, than seeing a vertical joint between the stile and the rail. This layout can be minimized by using a half lap for the joint, thereby having half the thickness of the rail showing from the end.

Whichever way the faceframe is laid out is not really important to the structural aspect of the cabinet, as frameless cabinets do all right without a faceframe. If the edge of the faceframe may seem objectionable, the faceframe can be mitered to the face of the cabinet. This actually looks pretty good.

It's a matter of personal taste. Having a four corner mitered door frame, or a four corner mitered faceframe, may be a visual appeal for a "picture frame look". The criteria for making these types of decisions may vary as to whether it's finished wood, or a painted finish.

Joe Lyddon · 03-21-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetman

From the following plans for face frame design, discuss your choices of configuration. It may be beneficial if you include your reasoning for applications with or without doors. For whatever plan you discuss, include how you would treat stiles that were dividers for the front of the cabinet. In other words, whether they would butt to the top and bottom rails, or run the vertical length and having the rails butt into them.

Plan A
Outside stiles: Run vertically the length of the side of the cabinet.
Top and bottom rails: Butt in between the side stiles.

Plan B
Outside stiles: Run in between the top and bottom rails.
Top and bottom rails: Run the width of the cabinet.

Plan C
Rails and stiles are mitered at the four corners.

Hi Mike,

I just made one of two Book/Magazine cases where I chose Plan B primarily because the Top rail has a decorative simple pattern cut in the bottom where I thought it would just look better going from one side to the other. The only downside to it, as far as I can tell, is that endgrain will show on the Top & bottom rails. I think I can live with that... I do like it better this way.

edit: To clarify, my Top & Bottom rails are like Plan B... the other Rails in between top & bottom, in front of shelves, stay on the inside like Plan A. I am using a combo Plan AB. :)
/edit

edit: BTW, it's my first major project using Pocket Hole joinery... so fdar, so good. /edit

Am I thinking correctly about it?

cabinetman · 03-21-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Lyddon

Hi Mike,

edit: To clarify, my Top & Bottom rails are like Plan B... the other Rails in between top & bottom, in front of shelves, stay on the inside like Plan A. I am using a combo Plan AB. :)
/edit

edit: BTW, it's my first major project using Pocket Hole joinery... so fdar, so good. /edit

Am I thinking correctly about it?

Joe,
You're thinking and that's a good thing. I don't think there's a right or wrong way. It's personal taste. I've done just about all the configurations that are possible, some for projects that warranted the choice in favor of the look.

If you are concerned about the end grain, use half laps on the joints, and you'll only see half of the end grain. That would be a more stable and stronger joint than pocket screws. I'm not a fan of pocket screws as you know.

Joe Lyddon · 03-21-2009, 10:08 PM

OK, very good!

I thought I may be 'bucking' tradition...

Too late to change now... everything is cut... One is put together. I was going to take it apart, sand, prefinish a little, & screw it back together. I changed my mind... I will sand & finish as assembled... Thinking of using TransTinted shellac.

I'm trying to get an answer from Jeff to find out if TransTint can color MinWax's stainable wood filler... Then I would color the filler so as not to look real bad where shoing.

Thank you for your comments.

So far, I like Pocket Screws... Very fast and strong... No glue to wait for!

Conner · 03-22-2009, 12:48 PM

I use Plan A, with divider stiles running between the top and bottom rails. I also do the same on doors. However, with drawer fronts for some reason I do just the opposite and build them as though they are doors turned 90 degrees on their side. Don't know what other people do on drawer fronts, if they build them like doors or like doors turned sideways.
On the face frames I figured the reason to run the stiles the entire vertical length of the cabinet was in case you needed to scribe the length to get it to fit you could do so running the entire length like a rip, and not have to plane across end grain.

mmwood_1 · 03-29-2009, 01:40 AM

I guess maybe I might be the odd man out. I run end stiles all the way, top to bottom. ALL rails butt in between stiles, with dividing stiles butted to the top rail, then running all the way down. Bottom rails butt in between divider stiles and end stiles. And all these "butts" are only visual. In reality, they are all mortise and tenon joints.