Business question, buying lumber - Woodworking Talk

**Daren** · 06-05-2008, 05:41 PM

This is a legitimate question from me, I am not being coy. I will start by saying I don't buy lumber for woodworking. It has probably been more than 6 (maybe 7 ?) years since I bought even a pine 2"X4". We sawmillers some times get lost in the whole pricing game, too high/too low compared to other outlets. That is especially tough for a guy like me who likes to saw and use oddball stuff. A nice straight 1"x10"x8' oak board is easy (6.6 bft, I would like to get $2 if I could for dried wood so that is $13.20, I would drop the $.20 for a good customer).

Here is an example, the pictures below. Say you were wanting to make a small live edge walnut table. You go in some place and find flitches like the pictures. I took pictures of the ones with knots, I like character, some don't have the knot. I laid them on the mill just right so I got a the knot on a few and not others (sawyers understand what I am talking about, knot parallel to the deck).

Now they are for this example about 15" X 48", or 5 bft. My lower grade walnut sells for $2.50 bft, it goes up from there (18" wide perfectly clear no knots/sapwood is $8.00) Where would just the "perfect board for the job" fall in there for you ? Assuming you even like live edge and free form stuff, many don't. Would you pay $15 for that top ? Seems kinda cheap to me

. Would they be worth $50 to some people for that one special project ? See what I mean. I only see the selling end of things. I have certain customers who get pictures of the oddball stuff I mill emailed to them. Some guys I shoot a fair price for both of us, other times it becomes a bidding war kinda "Joe told me he would give me $20 each for them, what do you think ?" and it gets weird.

This is not a very good example, these are just little chunks of walnut, off to the left of the picture of them stacked is about 400 lbs of burl and next to that out of the frame are 24" wide curly maple slabs under a blanket (my stash

) I am just throwing this out there as a point of discussion. I know many (most ?) do not even go to a mill to buy wood...they like that stuff from the big box with the bar code label stuck on it on it. Any thought are welcome. Your thoughts on specialty lumber, mills, Homer Depot wood, what you pay for wood...it's all fair game (what you had for supper

, I don't care)

firehawkmph · 06-05-2008, 06:35 PM

Hi Daren,
You sound like the kind of guy I like to deal with. I hate the lumber at the big box stores. I go to a couple of different amish mills that are within a 45 minute ride from me. The one in particular has raised their prices noticeably and the quality of the wood has gone way down. I just bought recently from a fella that has an operation at his home in the country. He buys wood that is fresh sawn, green, and then dries it in his own kiln, which is the size of a two car garage. I bought about 140 board feet of dry, rough-sawn ash for 1.50 a bf. Most of the boards were around 11 feet long, from 6-12" wide. I took it home and ran it through my planer and came out with some very nice pieces. A lot of tiger stripes and curly grain. I built two base cabinets and made my own casing and tall base for two rooms in my house. It all came out very nice. I would rather deal with an individual.
Mike Hawkins

woodchip · 06-05-2008, 07:17 PM

Personally i would go broke if i lived any where near you. For me i usually buy my wood from a sawyer whenever i can. It' a lot more personable than the home depot type thing. The only time that i don't buy from a sawmill is when i'm looking for wood such as bloodwood, purpleheart that type of thing. It struck me as odd when i went to looking for some 8/4 walnut for a hope chest for my daughter that none of the locals had any. I live within a 2 hour drive of a lumber dealer that has about every type of wood you can think of but i still like seeing and sometimes helping saw my logs into lumber if i'm lucky enough. I don't personally care much for live edge on my boards but to each his own. Around here 4/4 walnut sells for about $4.00 bdft double for 8/4 free of knots or not. I just wish i had the set up and wood you do, I wouldn't have need to buy wood either. HMMMMM you said 24" wide curly maple huh!!!!!

jeffreythree · 06-05-2008, 09:56 PM

Oh man, I love wild/weird/crazy wood. I started surfing ebay about 2 years ago for wood. Up until about 6 months to a year ago I could find good deals, even after shipping. You could get $25-35 for that walnut board. If you have a bookmatch you will get more than double, who knows if you get a bidding war. The strange or perfect stuff goes the highest and moves the fastest on ebay. Downside is the crooks, fees, packaging for shipping. The cheap stuff seems to be gone, which is good for the sellers and my pocketbook. One mill I bought a lot from left ebay because of the fees. I have ~1000 bdft of oddball stuff from ebay: bookmatched spalted QS sycamore(lots), walnut crotches, cherry burls, some stuff I've never heard of like QS smoke berry, red hawthorn burl, lychee. I watched 3 bookmatched sets of flame boxelder boards 12"x48" go for $250, but also watched some really nice wormy QS white oak drop in price over 4 auctions until I bought them for $2.50/bdft after shipping. If you market it right it will sell, think wild, Crazy, INCREDIBLE FIGURE!!!! and you will get the buyers to look.

**Daren** · 06-05-2008, 10:07 PM

I don't do ebay. Buy cheap, sure (antique tools, Foley parts, abrasives). Sell cheap no way I am an established business.

Boardman · 06-05-2008, 10:13 PM

Heh...the eBay Felony Adjective Abuse. I see descriptive phrases like that and to me it screams "I'M LOOKING FOR A SUCKER OUT THERE!"

Personally Daren, I often envision the project the piece will go into and decide from there. $15 for that?....seems like peanuts. At $50 I could still turn that into a good paying piece. My own style if you will, is to use uncommon cuts of wood, even if it's a common species. I don't think I'd do well cranking out oak Mission furniture, etc. I just did and art fair where a couple Mission style table with curly mineralized maple went over real big.

I'm sure you've found out that there's a certain buyer for each type of lumber. If it's strange, I'll take a look.

jeffreythree · 06-05-2008, 10:49 PM

What I was trying to say about ebay is that the wood is going for more now, usually to high. Do you have enough space on your website to add some of the better pieces with pics at a set price? I know of a site in Texas that sells turning blanks that way, they seem to move pretty quick to. All you need to do is set up a paypal transaction when someone contacts you wanting a piece. Paypal even has a nice invoicing tool to make it all official looking. There is also a shop on etsy.com that sells turning blanks for the crafters. That is where I list small boxes made from odds and ends. They only charge $0.20 for a 4 month listing and a percentage of the sale, though I do not know how many pieces that shop has sold. I have also seen some pretty high end furniture on there lately if you have a few extra pieces laying around, but don't know if any of it is selling. It's only 20 cents, maybe worth a try.

arkyrick · 06-05-2008, 11:24 PM

I have built all my life and mostly with store bought lumber,then one day I had a remodel that required a lot of hard wood, my brother in law suggested that I go to a saw mill he knew of and see if I could get a better price not only did I save almost half I got much better lumber and made a life long friend of the sawer, I have been hooked on saw mill lumber since and finally bought my own saw mill in my spare time I cut move and saw lumber, I love it! People come out of no where with logs all the time, I sometimes trade sell and give lumber away, it always makes me feel good to know I sawed it myself.

**Daren** · 06-06-2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffreythree

What I was trying to say about ebay is that the wood is going for more now, usually to high. Do you have enough space on your website to add some of the better pieces with pics at a set price?

Yea, I was not trying to sound snotty about ebay. I was just tired I guess, man it was hot yesterday and I milled alot and was running out of gas last night and did not take the time to explain. Just shot out that comment. I feel well rested this morning (slept like a baby last night

) I used to sell there. And you are right the money can be good for something special. A couple years ago (or 3?) I had a glut of highly figured maple and wanted fast cash. It was selling here locally, slowly, but I put it for auction and it started going for $17.50 bft

. I just set a buy it now price of that and it would sell as soon as I would list it, like the same day. It's a weird and unpredictable place to try to sustain any business for me though. I have room to store wood and a decent customer base so I have avoided it for a few years. I know one local sawmill that sells a ton of wood there. The husband does what I do and the wife keeps a few pieces on ebay all the time (and sells a bunch for a heck of alot more than they can get locally)

Actually the paypal thing and adding pieces to my site is something I am going to experiment with. 2 days ago at lunch I added a "buy it now" button on my kiln plan page (not even sure if it works right

, I clicked it myself and it took me to the invoice but you can't pay yourself so I could go no further, long story) I was not necessarily thinking wood, but I guess that would work, more like finished products. The web host I use even has an ecommerce package where I could add pages of inventory, for a fee of course, I pay $26 a year right now for my site. I think the full blown shopping cart set up is like $99 a year ? If a guy wanted to go that route.

Right now to be honest I have a supply side problem. I have more people contacting me wanting stuff than I have stuff to sell. That is one thing about being an urban logger that can be a disadvantage. I get what I can, saw what I get and sell that. Which makes for an odd inventory situation, I never know what will show up from day to day (if anything). I am more like a "farmers market" than a lumber yard if that makes sense. To complete that analogy I only have in stock what is in season so to speak, walnut one day-cherry the next.

**Daren** · 06-06-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boardman

I'm sure you've found out that there's a certain buyer for each type of lumber. If it's strange, I'll take a look.

I found that out pretty early. I have told this story here before I have a few guys (my dad is one of them) who will dig though the piles. They take the perfectly clear stuff off the top and set it aside until I hear "Hey, that's a cool knot", that is the board they want the "defective" one. They will walk right past a pile of perfectly sawn oak without even looking over at it heading for the scraps I keep leaned up against the wall looking for "hidden treasure".

I already know what I am going to do with 3 (4?) of the little walnut flitches. Make a small book shelf/open shelving of some sort, the pieces of course in sequence like they came off the log. Maybe just 4-1" dowels through them all on the corners, still stewing on that part. I have time to figure it out they were just milled yesterday, they will be awhile drying.

frankp · 06-06-2008, 11:19 AM

Daren, I unfortunately have no mills close to me that sell wood I want. I do have these guys, within a reasonable driving distance. www.exoticlumberinc.com. Some South African guys who import woods from all sorts of places. If you look at their price list, you can see that walnut is ~$6 bf (4/4) and up while figured walnut is ~$12. When they get pieces like you have cut (with natural edges) they're usually large 12-24" wide and 8 feet+ long and they just put a price on the slab, generally several hundred dollars to nearly $1k. (some species cheaper but nothing below $150 or so and those are for shorter 4' boards and such) Those pieces are generally too big for my needs and I don't pay close attention to the prices, though.

I, like you, like really figured woods, so I pay a premium around here. This area used to be full of mills, but there's only one I know of still operating within 100 miles of me and they don't cut custom and only cut oak and poplar for some reason. I just spoke with them today hoping to find better information or perhaps convince them to cut some logs I may bring them, but they're simply not interested. More incentive for me to buy a small mill of my own, I guess.

For what it's worth, I'd probably try and buy from your website as well, since I really like the woods you show on here and I can't really get a "good" price. I don't know that you'd be able to sell any cheaper than the folks I buy from, but at least I'd know the money was going to someone who cares about the wood, not just the business of selling it.

Boardman · 06-06-2008, 12:03 PM

I've got a cool idea that I'll follow thru on when I come across the right cuts. A while back I saw 2 pieces of cherry that were flitch sawn off a limb section I imagine. They were about 8-10" wide and were a real gently curving "S" shape, about 6' long.

I'd make a hall or sofa table from them. Put one on top of the other then jigsaw the "s" shape taking off the sapwood. Then use them as the table top - maybe space them 3/4" apart. Wouldn't be a bookmatch, but pretty close.

One day I'll see the right stuff.

clarionflyer · 06-06-2008, 03:13 PM

Wow Daren,
If I had a stash of lumber like that, I'd probably never sleep. I often go to the local mill http://www.bairdbrothers.com/ and ask "What do'ya got on leftovers"? Sometimes not much, sometimes it's like legal robbery. A lot of their "damaged" or "junk" stuff, I can't even find the defect.
I've also noticed that the hardwood I've bought from the "Box" stores tends to move a lot more than with the mill. Not sure if they cut corners on the drying or what. You'd know a lot more about that than me.
Anyways, I guarantee you that if I lived near you, I spend extra money for your stuff. If not just for quality - something tells me Home Depot cares less about urban logging.
Cheers.

**Daren** · 06-06-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarionflyer

Anyways, I guarantee you that if I lived near you, I spend extra money for your stuff. If not just for quality - something tells me Home Depot cares less about urban logging.
Cheers.

You may be surprised to find you would spend much less here than at the big box. If this link works check the price of oak. The widest they have is a 1"x8"x8' so my price from above for a 1"x10"x8 is not even a fair comparison. I said I needed $13 for that 1"x10"....this big box gets $32.60 for their 1"x8". (you could basically say 3X my price...if they had what I had) I am sure they are all pretty close in pricing so Homer Depot is not going to be much cheaper.

Their 1"x12"x4' is $25.04 = $6.25 bft. I said I tried to get $2.00 bft for oak (the local Amish mills sell it cheaper, but are harder to find for some people) http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...i_products&N=0

I don't usually mess with oak much anyway, not one of my favorite woods.

**Daren** · 06-06-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daren

Their 1"x12"x4' is $25.04 = $6.25 bft.

AND, I am sure their 1'X12"s don't look like this

(1/4 sawn and slightly curly)

clarionflyer · 06-06-2008, 03:55 PM

Hey Daren,
Check this out if you want. It's by far the best place I've seen for your everyday hardwoods. Like I said before, I usually just go and ask if there's any leftovers laying around - last time they had a huge 2" cherry slab for $40. (never could find the defect).
Here's the "on special list" for this week.
http://www.bairdbrothers.com/mm5/mer...de=130Specials

clarionflyer · 06-06-2008, 03:58 PM

Oh... just wondering... do you advertise?
Your prices and your wood are obviously awesome... I would think if everyone around knew of you, they'd be beating down your door.

**Daren** · 06-06-2008, 04:04 PM

"Oh... just wondering... do you advertise?
Your prices and your wood are obviously awesome... I would think if everyone around knew of you, they'd be beating down your door."

Quote from above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daren

I have more people contacting me wanting stuff than I have stuff to sell.

I do not advertise. I have not for 4+ years, it's all word of mouth. I don't really even sell online much anymore. I prefer "cash and carry"...if you know what I mean

clarionflyer · 06-06-2008, 04:16 PM

Roger Roger... on the wink wink.

jeffreythree · 06-06-2008, 09:58 PM

I thought of something last that might work for you Daren, if you don't already do it. I bought some cherry about a year ago from an urban sawyer like yourself. He does not have time to really work on websites and really sell his stuff except locally. He puts out a quarterly email that talks about what he has done over the last few months and what unique woods he has in stock. No pics, just info and a price. An example, he had 50 bdft of QS white oak with interesting staining left over after a buyer bought most of it. He uses it to get the oddball and left over stuff moving to free up space for the next load, and usually lists about a dozen lots. If someone is then interested in the email and responds he provides more info. You could ask for emails from your local customers and use your guest book. You might have a local that hasn't come by in a while show up more often this way. Target those repeat customers and keep them coming back.