toddj99

Here's a link to some pics I took for a guy who is building the cabinets, etc. for a local sporting goods/hardware store. He's been woodworking for awhile now but is down on his luck and I told him that I would help him out buy taking the pics, posting them and hopefully getting some feedback. I know that some of you guys here do this professionally and am just wondering if you could give a ball park figure of what you would charge for the same work. One set of cabinets if obviously pine while the rest is red oak. He even did the walls with rough cut red oak. The big stand with the deer mounts is a compound bow rack. I think the business that he works for, knowing the situation he is in, is taking advantage of it and screwing him. Thanks for any input.


http://s380.photobucket.com/albums/oo243/b_lanca/

mics_54

I'm in the business. It looks as though your friend worked a long time on the project. It also appears that the decore might have been somewhat predetermined with a specific atmosphere in mind with a little budget in the mix. This isn't uncommon in commercial project of this type. I don't know what the term "screwing" him means without details. I see some things that could have been done with a little more finesse but I would say your friend is due a carpenters wages in any case. Was he working hourly? Was he supplying material? Was he working on site? What was he expecting and what are they offering?

Davet

Don't mean to sound crude ...but....
What your friend gets paid to do a job, is really up to him to
research and determine.
You may want to heed my advice and stay out of his business.

Dave

GeorgeC

It is nice of you to try to help this person. However, there is no way anybody can do any price guessing without a lot more detail.

The most important question. What were the financial terms before the job was started?

G

toddj99

I don't know what the term "screwing" him means without details.
Was he working hourly? He's getting paid hourly, less than 10 an hour. Was he supplying material? No, all provided. Was he working on site? Did it all in the back room of the building. What was he expecting and what are they offering? He was working the floor as a salesman then they put him to work using his carpenter skills.

What your friend gets paid to do a job, is really up to him to
research and determine.
You may want to heed my advice and stay out of his business.
This is the furthest that I'm going, never planned on getting anymore involved. I just told him that I would do this for him to see what kind of response he could get in relation to his work. I'm a regular customer in the store and occasionally
I run into him when he's in the area and not in the back room. His financial status doesn't allow him to leave but he's still able to take care of himself. I've posted the images, burned the pics to disk and will print copies of them for him. He can do what he needs to after that.

Thanks for the input.

mics_54

I'm still making some assumptions...It looks like your friend probably vollunteered his skills in which case he's getting paid what he normally got paid being a salesman. If he did'nt make prior negotiations for more money he should be satisfied. If he used his own equipment and tools he should be compensated accordingly. I have the feeling he said.."I can do that" when he should have said.."I can do that for $xx.xx/hr" Live and Learn. Given recent events of Nov 5th he would be well advised to make himself as valuable to his employer as possible. I have a feeling things are going to get tight. Good luck to both of you.

joesdad

Cool pics, it sounds like he got paid to advertise his skills for future clients who then will pay him what his work is actually worth.

__________________
"Well... it looked good on the drawing" :http://armandj.com

Tony B

They offered him less than $10/hour and he accepted it. I assume they are paying him. If he is down on his luck, that is not the problem of his employer. You also said he is a woodworker. You did not say cabinet maker. Maybe his employer is the one getting screwed. A cabinet maker may earn twice as much but is able to do the job in 1/4 of the time. I am not able to download the pics from this location, but that is secondary to the issue.

__________________
Tony B

http://www.thetexaswoodworks.com

cabinetman

He accepted the project with the financial arrangements that were offered. If he felt like he was getting "screwed", he should have backed off.

I don't take work with the anticipation of what it "may" bring me in the future. I'm a here and now kind of guy. I don't get impressed with promises.

From the pictures the work looks better than some casework I've seen.

Handyman

I think you freind has done a great job. I do think he took the job at the pay he was getting may have been his mistake. His work is worth way more than he got payed. As for him getting screwed, HMM he needs to chock it up as a lesson learned and move on. I have been in the same spot before and it is disheartning. But as he did, I also put myself in that spot. I was trying to make my self look good to my boss buy using skills not related to my job. The problem then is I was ecspected to do it from now on at the same pay while saving the company a small fortune. Lesson learned.

__________________
Collector of Old Tools
Fixer of all things broke
Expert = Drip under pressure

JackC

I seriously doubt anyone here would build that project for 10 bucks an hour. I know I wouldn't but he did accept the deal so live and learn.
I was a insurance adjuster and also worked part-time for a wedding photog and did some freelance. I was asked to take some "pittchurs" of a suspicious house fire, "we'll pay for the film etc". That quickly turned into my taking "pittchurs" several times a month including some overnight travel but "we'll pay for you for your expenses, just put it on your expense report". So I ended up floating my expenses for a multi million dollar co. and got to spend time away from my family,,but they did pay me my normal salary so "what's the problem?"

I suggested that I'd take a vacation day and submit a bill for my services at my regular rate. They wanted no part of that. I soon left that co and within 3 months I was contacted to take more "pittchurs" but now at my regular rate. That arrangement lasted for almost 20 years until I was forced to retire due to health reasons.

So while I agreed to the terms as did your friend, I feel I was taken advantage of in the beginning same as he was. Live and learn.

Basser425

I am a commercial photographer and designer ...been self employed since the late 1970's.....in the last few years I have been very cognizant about the $$ per hour concept and the actual number of hours I put into the assignment. My philosophy is basically that if I put in slightly more time on a job than I originally estimated, so what...it is only time. Yes my $$$ per hour drops, but so what... I still earned the job fee, paid my bills , etc. I cannot support my family on TIME! BUT.....I will not "give my time away "either...so it becomes a fine line between earning a FAIR wage for my service and creativity or not earning ANYTHING. There will ALWAYS be the semi pro or amateur out there who charges significantly less than me... but if the client cannot see the difference(or cannot afford it) between my level of quality and the others... I do not want that assignment. SO... the answer to your friends situation, is in his head... does HE feel he was taken advantage of? Charged too little? Each of us must make that determination for ourselves. BTY... I do NOT sell my hobbies...that's why they are hobbies and NOT work.

steve mackay

This person is your freind ? Run away, run away. NEVER get involved with business or money with family or freinds. If something goes bad, for whatever reason, big or small, its going to be your fault. Getting the willies just think'n about it. If they are going to be doing it professionaly they need to find their own way. Sorry, know I'm crude, but no good deed goes un-punished.

smitty1967

tru dat....

toddj99

Friend is a slight stretch. I'll talk with him at his workplace occasionally, get advice from him, and occasionally listen to him complain about the bad run of luck he is in - divorce, loss of everything, etc.. I just spent 21 years in the army, seen plenty of situations like it. Real nice guy which is why I told him I would help him out with the pics, postings and printings but I'm not getting involved any deeper than that. His situation is NOT my lane. He's an adult and can work himself out or into anything himself. He's even suggested that we go into something together. Told him that I've got a fulltime job, wife, two kids and only do my woodworking in the evenings and weekends when able. I think his idea is coming from desperation to get out of his rut more than anything as he actually has no idea how good I am as he hasn't even seen any of my work. I've seen his and he's better than I am. As for the pay he's getting, I still believe that the owner of the store, his employer, knows he's getting a good deal for dollars and is taking full advantage of it but it's not my business to say anything to either one of them. I'm just there to buy stuff (tools, hardware). Through conversation with "John" we'll call him, he's asked for a raise, been refused, and even got payed late by the owner which caused him to be late with his rent, etc. and had many comments from others about how he could get a lot more for his work elsewhere. I obviously have no idea how much he could make which is why I posted the pics here and another woodworking board. They had much fewer reponses but the ones I did get were similar to the quality of work and the pay he could expect. Thank you very much for the responses.

As for the running of this thread, I'll ask the moderator to let this run for another day or so then delete it. I've got the responses that I need for a clearer understanding of what he should expect for his work and will relay it to him. He won't like it as he's gotten a wrong impression from someone and has gotten his hopes up way to high. Thank you all very much.

joesdad

Todd I want to see if I understand this correctly. He works in this store as a full time employee right? sales, moving stock whatever...? The way I understand this, the owner said, "hey you do woodworking why don't you build these cases and displays for us" He works his regular hours but instead of getting paid 10/hour to dust off shelves he instead gets to do some woodworking and in turn, show off his skills to potential clients who come through the door. That's how I perceived all of this.

If he came off the street and offered his services as a cabinet guy for that rate...well that's a different story, and a sad one.

__________________
"Well... it looked good on the drawing" :http://armandj.com

Tony B

Unfortunately for me, I cant download the pics from this location so I cant judge the quality or the overall job. I'm sure most of you cant either from just looking at pics.
Assuming the quality is good and the 'look' is good, that leaves us with value to be determined. The best way to do that is to get 3 or 4 cabinet makers/display makers in there and determine the cost of the job which is the value. Then we take this mans total time on that job and determine if his boss got a good deal. Maybe the boss could have done better with an experienced cabinet maker. What matters to you friend is given the value of the job, would he have made a decent wage if he was a contractor. If he would have, he still is not getting screwed. He got his normal wage to something that was fun.
The next question is, if he would have made a decent wage as a contractor, how much work would he get in the future?
If he would not have made a decent wage as a contractor ($40 to $80/hour depending on location) he don't have the money it takes buy the equipment, by his own admission. If that be the case, he owes his boss a thank you for the fun opportunity.
Anyone in the woodworking business knows exactly what I am talking about.
Keep in mind that if ts fun to do everyone wants to do it. This is what brings the price down. To make a good living at it, you better be really good and reasonably fast.

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Tony B

http://www.thetexaswoodworks.com

Gerry KIERNAN

An interesting thread. My take on it goes kind of like this. If he is just getting normal wages then perhaps he is getting screwed. However, assuming his employer is paying for all the material, and paying him for his time, then maybe it's not all bad. It looks to me like he is doing some very nice work, with some rustic appeal. The work he is doing is in a fantastic showcase, where many people will come and go. Hunting is no longer a cheap sport, so many of the people who frequent this store are going to be well heeled.
If he is smart he will ask his boss if he can print up some business cards to the effect that he is available to do this type of work. They could be placed on the counters in a small holder. This could lead to more work, where he can charge a fair price for his services.
At the very worst, he is gaining valuable experience, in woodwork, cabinetry, and hopefully an insight into negotiating a fair return for his skills. The rest is up to him.
Having gone through a divorce, myself, many years ago, I know what state of mind a person can be in. You tend to feel like a total failure, and utterly defeated. You also tend to make some bad decisions. It takes time to pull yourself together. Once he starts getting his self confidence back he will make better decisions, and he will start standing up for himself.

He is in a rough spot now, but it will improve.

Gerry