mike888

Adding a row of base cabinets in a clients house. It is on the second story, parallel with the stairs on the landing. About 18' long, 36" tall and 23" deep running just beneath the pony wall looking out over the first floor. I was told that the entire length was to have no partitions or sides. Face framed and adjustable shelves inside. O.K. And there is to be a Silestone top running the length as well. I thought, crazy, but still feasible. I ran 3/4 along the back wall to act as ledger and to support shelf pins, standard 2 X 4 kick, sectioned everything into manageable 3' lengths. Concocted an elaborate skeleton out of ply ripped and laminated to be 1.5" X 1.5" running behind the face frame with shelf pin holes centered on either side, all tying together at the perpendicular joints, running through the 3/4" back and supporting a 4" web on the front side for the countertop. All glued and screwed. Seemed like maybe it could work. Crazy as hell, but I like a challenge. After 20 hrs of cutting, milling (like 600 freaking shelf pin holes) and hauling all that up the stairs the boss comes by and tells me I'm overbuilding. He stated that the shelf pin holes should go in the back of the face frame stiles and I need only one runner from the 3/4" cabinet back, then pocket holed to the to the face frame (where the partitions would be, 7 total). So that there could be just one long continuous shelf (of course it would be 2@ 8'L X 22"D) with drawers on one end to pick up the leftover. I laughed. He wasn't joking. "That's what the client wants," he says. "That's insane," I reply. After much apprehensive banter and even referencing my old physics primer he is unmoved, "I've done it a hundred times." "Finish up on monday." So here is my quandary, I ask you for your opinions and wisdom on this matter. Can a face frame hold up a countertop, 12 doors, shelves and all the crap that shall go on them? Not to mention the shelves themselves. I know what my numbers say, just need some kind of feedback.

TexasTimbers

Why not? Think of it as you have one linear foot of frame holding up the one linear foot of the stuff above it. Face frames are made of solid wood or plywood veneer and both have incredible shear strengths, and properly constructed can hold up an astounding amount of weight.

What are your "numbers" and how did you arrive at them? I have books that will give us some numbers as well but I haven't used them in so long it would take me a long time to A) find the books then B) figure out how to use them again.

So I am just shooting from the hip and experience with my opinion: If you're a little hesitant, use 4/4 stock vs. 3/4 and make your stiles a little wider for more support. Long grain hardwood can support more weight than what you realize, but if you need numbers more power to you. Share them with us so we can tell you how wrong they are.

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mike888

So you want me to type out lengthy multi variable equations that you have long forgotten, written in books you've long ago lost to prove what? It seems your mind is already set. I can handle critique and criticism but that is senseless. Futile, as it were. Thanks anyway.

TexasTimbers

I thought it would be obvious even without the smilies, that I was attempting to use a little humor at the end. But I added the smilies just to make sure because I realize some people will choose to take something in the worst possible way.

What I didn't think of at the time was the possibility you actually do not have any "numbers" to begin with.

Ya just have to know who you can have a little harmless banter with and who you can't. Lesson learned.

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Julian the woodnut

Don't sign up here and just ask away and then be harsh about the comments you recieve. Maybe next time you join a forum, you could post a thread introducing yourself. This is a great place, so relax and take some time to look around.

To answer your question, as long as the face frame is well built, there is no need for more support other than maybe a few 1x2's from front to back that are pocket screwed in to keep the face from bowing out.

Webster

I second that notion!!

mike888

Well. I feel like an ass. Apologies all around, especially to Timber King. Completely misconstrued your intent. New to the forum thing, seemed like a shot. No excuse really... I'll tuck my tail and turn. Really embarrassed about the whole thing, completely inappropriate of me. What a way to start it out... Once again, sincere apologies.http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/image.../surrender.gif

TexasTimbers

No problem Mike. I've had to eat humble pie more than once, and it hurts when you realize some people can truly forgive but others just can't ever get over it.

It's the price we pay for talking before thinking, something I've gotten better at but still goof up myself on occasion. We all screw up, takes a good man to realize it, admit, and ask for forgiveness. Water under the bridge.

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TexasTimbers

PS, go introduce yourself now!

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clampman

Mike,

I would not be fond of doing it that way myself, because the 3/4" plywood bottom cantelevered out over the toe kick will be supporting half the entire weight of the unit plus half (or more) of all the stuff inside.

And the plywood will be going the wrong direction to achieve its maximum resistence to bending.

It will be fine in the short run, but long term I think the bottom of the unit will sag due to the cantelevered plywood bottom "creeping" under long term loading. If you are using inset (flush up north) doors, I think the reveals will start narrowing within a year if they load that unit up with stuff, and if the reveals are small, the doors will start sticking.

If the house style is such that you could run some of the intermediate stiles to the floor - breaking the span into smaller segments - I would then not worry about it.

Good luck.

Jim

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Gerry KIERNAN

Welcome to the forum Mike. Don't give up on us just yet, we actually are a pretty decent bunch of guys, and occasionally we even help people solve their little problems.

Gerry

TexasTimbers

I wouldn't build a conventionally-designed toe kick for that very reason. I'd build the end panels (if thery're are any) the way I designed this vanity in our guest room.

And behind each stile, you would want to tee a 6" to 8" (because you'll be removing 4" or however much of a kick you want) wide board into each stile to give lateral support and to resist the forces you are referring to on the "overhang" so to speak. Each tee would need to be recessed (square not radiused like I did mine) however much to accommodate the toe kick.

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mike888

I see what your saying. That is probably what I'll do. Boss man wants the kick sitting at least 3.5" back but there needs to be more bracing on the stiles. That'll likely do the trick and keep everyone happy.
On a side note. The beast got painted today. Get a pic up tomorrow.

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redwolves

Not to be a wise arse or anything, but you could also run some 3/4 supports under the cantilever for the toe kick and just kill them with the bottom rail. Front to back. Same as a support for a countertop? On the flat, not vertical.

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