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post #1 of 23 Old 03-18-2014, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Arrow Respect For Others In The Community

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In this community members are expected to treat each other with respect at all times.

There will always be disagreements and fusses between members. It is simply human nature. We truly encourage members to discuss and openly share their thoughts on a topic. It is how we all learn and life would be pretty boring if we all felt the same way.

That being said, this is not grade school. We don’t gang up in little groups to take sides or encourage others to do the same.

If you were at a local get together and got into a disagreement with someone, I am guessing you would take it outside instead of ruining the party for everyone. I expect the same here.

If you are not able to discuss a topic respectfully then you need to remove yourself from the topic. If you are unable to discuss a topic with a specific member then you need to choose to ignore that member or take the discussion off the boards. If you are unable to do either of these things, I will help you to do so.

I wrote this for another forum a while back. Today I want to share it with you.

The Other Side Of The Monitor
http://blog.v7n.com/2014/04/01/other...f-the-monitor/
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post #2 of 23 Old 04-19-2014, 11:10 PM
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Forum Decorum

Having been the brunt of personal "attacks" and having watched a few others suffer the same fate recently, I felt it was time to offer up some suggestions.

When responding to a post... say the OP wants to do an operation in a manner like "ABC" It is very easy to say "I wouldn't do it that way, I would use XYZ, instead."

Now the next poster comes in and says, "Your way XYZ won't work, Didn't you read the post? The OP wants ABC with some M&Ms." This is a personal affront. It would be better and more appropriate to say "Why not try PQRS, that's the way I've done it and it works for me" without referencing the XYZ method or getting personal at all, leave the other guy's post out of your suggestion. This would avoid a lot of the BS that goes on here. If you must quote another's post then do it in a civil manner without being argumentative.

There is way too much EGO going on here and it is driving away new members unnecessarily. If you disagree with a post, offer an alternative rather than an attack. This is not gorilla warfare with snipers and get backs that have no place in a woodworking forum or community. It has happened too many times to myself and others. As far as taking it to PM's, I will not carry out an argument in a PM. If I can't say what I need to say in the public forum, it likely will not be very pretty in a PM and what's the point. That's like taking the bar fight out into the street ...childish. If you can't say it in public in a proper and civil manner and stand by your statement, just let it go.... forget about it, it's just not worth it. Just my .02$

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post #3 of 23 Old 04-22-2014, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle.”
― Plato
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post #4 of 23 Old 04-22-2014, 10:38 PM
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So...
two or more people meet and they are all fighting a harder battle than the others?

I suppose Plato had his better moments but that wasn't one of them.

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my grandfather did — in his
sleep. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car.

Jack Handey
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post #5 of 23 Old 04-22-2014, 11:08 PM
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I believe it's the meaning behind the words that Plato was trying to convey. You should treat people as if they are fighting a harder battle than you when you meet them.

Kinda like how both people of a married couple have to give 60% just to keep things equal.
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post #6 of 23 Old 04-23-2014, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Woodworks View Post
I believe it's the meaning behind the words that Plato was trying to convey. You should treat people as if they are fighting a harder battle than you when you meet them.

Kinda like how both people of a married couple have to give 60% just to keep things equal.
It is fine to give people the benefit of the doubt at first, but there often comes a time when enough is enough.
Turning your back on cyber bullies only means you are letting them get away with their nonsense, sometimes a stand has to be taken.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
― Marcus Aurelius
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post #7 of 23 Old 04-23-2014, 11:52 AM
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There are a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds on here. Take me and my neighbor. We could be the best of friends, except my heart lies in the American West, and hers has roots in old East Coast money or maybe Great Britain or something.... I say a thing straight and consider it offensive when others don't treat me that way. From her point of view, my way is rude an insulting. In her world, it is a mark of manners and professionalism to hint and talk around a thing, without being so crude as to say it straight out. We both hear the other person as insulting us, only no insult was meant.

At least 1/2 of these dust ups has to do with the reader as much as the poster. You can't be sure your miter saw is tuned until you do some test cuts. It doesn't matter if we assume its square, you gotta check. So why do we just assume our interpretation of any given post is the one that was intended?
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post #8 of 23 Old 04-23-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
It is fine to give people the benefit of the doubt at first, but there often comes a time when enough is enough.
Turning your back on cyber bullies only means you are letting them get away with their nonsense, sometimes a stand has to be taken.
I know its not just you Frank but you made the comment. Your missing the point. The admin and mods are strongly suggesting that people be more considerate of others and that the bickering stop. It's bad for the forum and it's something that we will handle if needed.

I'm already on a mission to stop the bickering because I keep getting complaints. We are asking or suggesting a way for that to happen. If not I will start forcing it my way.

Now don't get me wrong good debate is ok as long as it don't cross the line. It's easy to tell when it does because the other person lets you know. At that time you have a few options, agree to disagree, back off and maybe let them know it was not an attack on them, argue back causing trouble on the forum. Reporting stuff gets out of hand when it's not really a big deal but if you think its really worthy to report please do so.

I keep telling people that just because someone disagrees with you it's not the end of the world. New ideas come from debate or opening ones mind to different views or methods. No one is perfect or knows it all so have a open mind and consider what people say before you get upset. At the same time try to word things in a nice way when in these debates. Another too is give your example without quoting and calling out the other guy. This one is hard sometimes because it may be a certain thing that your quoting just to make sure people understand. In that case the person getting quoted should consider that without getting upset.

Last thing, Threads getting hijacked are a big complaint by many. It happens and if it does get back on tract with apologies to the original poster.

Everyone's anticipated cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated. I apologize for my less then elegant writing style. It's just who I am.
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post #9 of 23 Old 04-23-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Woodworks
I believe it's the meaning behind the words that Plato was trying to convey. You should treat people as if they are fighting a harder battle than you when you meet them.
Laughing! Well why didn't he just say that?

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my grandfather did — in his
sleep. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car.

Jack Handey
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post #10 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
I know its not just you Frank but you made the comment. Your missing the point. The admin and mods are strongly suggesting that people be more considerate of others and that the bickering stop. It's bad for the forum and it's something that we will handle if needed.
snip
On the contrary I do not believe I am missing the point, this forum has problems as you have pointed out.
Turning the other cheek is not a solution, it will only lead to more members leaving until those few that entertain themselves by pushing others buttons are made aware that such actions are not acceptable, preferably by the moderators of the forum.
It all comes down to respect, respect of the members to each other, and respect of the moderators to the members.
I don't envy the role of a moderator, it is often difficult to remain at a distance and keep things running smoothly, at best it is usually a thankless job.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
― Marcus Aurelius
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Last edited by FrankC; 04-24-2014 at 12:22 PM.
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post #11 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 03:47 PM
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It is fine to give people the benefit of the doubt at first, but there often comes a time when enough is enough.
Turning your back on cyber bullies only means you are letting them get away with their nonsense, sometimes a stand has to be taken.
I'm going to sound like a dick here, but any adult who uses the term "cyber bullies" in reference to adults talking to each other is on my list of "not to be taken seriously during this conversation".

Bullying happens. Rudeness happens. Adults should know how to ignore it. Hell, children should but at least with them it's understandable if they don't.

"Making a stand" should be simply reporting the post and moving on with the ignoring part.
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 05:25 PM
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seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankp View Post
I'm going to sound like a dick here, but any adult who uses the term "cyber bullies" in reference to adults talking to each other is on my list of "not to be taken seriously during this conversation".

What PC term would you like to use instead?

If in fact, as you state:
Bullying happens. Rudeness happens. Adults should know how to ignore it. Hell, children should but at least with them it's understandable if they don't.

.
Adults do know how to ignore it, but when "childish" behavior continually rears it's head, and after repeated insults and "get backs" and quotes that have only a personal nature, what do recommend then....? Just ignore them? Just report them?

Wouldn't it be far better that the "childish behavior" be recognized, just stop and not disrupt the continuity of the threads instead of pouring more work on the Mods?

Children are the most vicious of all. They always pick on the defenseless, the smallest, the most humble, the "fat" kids..etc.
I drove by a big tall teenager washing a smaller kids face with ice and snow, so I turned around, jumped out the truck and yelled in that "bullies" face ..... "Don't EVER let me se you doin' that again." The little kid said: "Thanks Mister" as I drove away. It was as rewarding as it was frustrating.

AS I said some folks have ego issues and they don't even know it, so there is little hope, aside from reprimands from the high ups/Mods. My tag line is there for a reason....just sayin'

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post #13 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 05:53 PM
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Just out of curiosity, what are moderators able to do in order to discipline offending members?

Also, how are the rules written? Is it against the rules to say something simply disrespectful?

Check out some of my custom stairs
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 06:02 PM
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Ok I got to put a stop to this. First there are many, many people on here that have ego's. Sorry but the truth hurts. You have many here with military backgrounds me included. I will go as far as to say the Marines and or any special forces especially will have larger then normal egos. It takes a certain personality to do those jobs and it damn sure isn't the weak or calm minded. Now that said throw in police, firemen, highly educated people in competitive fields and just plain ole old grumpy men. If I left your category out don't get your feelings hurt I meant you too.

These people are the ones involved in this crap on both sides. Add to it that its over a computer and you have even the ones that normally would avoid conflict are getting involved. Me I have had and still have my fair share of incidents in person that the normal person would avoid. I have a take no crap attitude online and in person and will stand my ground against anyone. 28 years of marriage is starting to influence me in a good way because I know its a problem at times and have tried to change a little. My point is don't assume your innocent if your involved in more then one or two dust ups. Its natural to think its not you but it don't make it right.

I and the other mods will be watching how and why these things happen. However be warned I want it on the record that I will definitely call it to everyones attention in the open forum. One day bans may be levied if needed and we can build from there.

All I want is a good forum that people want to stay. Dust ups affect members in that they feel uncomfortable and that there post get ignored because of the BS elsewhere. I also would like less problems so I have more time to work on projects.

So take a good look in the mirror and make any needed adjustments so we can all play nice.

Once again I apologize for the less then poetic writing but its to the point.
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post #15 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 06:06 PM
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I already answered the what we can do. We are working to make the rules easier to find but they are in the FAQ.

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post #16 of 23 Old 04-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankp
I'm going to sound like a dick here, but any adult who uses the term "cyber bullies" in reference to adults talking to each other is on my list of "not to be taken seriously during this conversation".

Bullying happens. Rudeness happens. Adults should know how to ignore it. Hell, children should but at least with them it's understandable if they don't.

"Making a stand" should be simply reporting the post and moving on with the ignoring part.
Well said Frank.

The only things I'd add are that some people here are a tad too sensitive and reporting somebody seems a little candy-assed to me.

If I offend someone I'd much rather they confront me directly like an adult than tattle behind my back like a child.

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my grandfather did — in his
sleep. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car.

Jack Handey
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post #17 of 23 Old 04-25-2014, 12:57 AM
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Well said Frank.

The only things I'd add are that some people here are a tad too sensitive and reporting somebody seems a little candy-assed to me.

If I offend someone I'd much rather they confront me directly like an adult than tattle behind my back like a child.
I agree as long as it don't hijack a thread. Take it to PM and fire both barrels.

The other problem people report is it keeps happening. Even if they are confronted. Seems simple but when both parties are commenting back and forth it ruins the thread and or gets harder to tell at what point it crossed the line.

Simple solution is if you know you offend people by always quoting them stop or at the least slow it down some. If you are the person getting quoted look to see why and think if it was another member doing it would it bother me as much. I'm thinking not but either way a simple post that we will have to agree to disagree shows that you've made an effort and will either be a flag for the mods to see it or a trigger for the one quoting you to let them know hey enough is enough.

Then the mods can get a better picture of things if it's even needed.
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post #18 of 23 Old 04-25-2014, 07:20 AM
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I agree as long as it don't hijack a thread. Take it to PM and fire both barrels.

The other problem people report is it keeps happening. Even if they are confronted. Seems simple but when both parties are commenting back and forth it ruins the thread and or gets harder to tell at what point it crossed the line.
Here's the rub with that. It's beyond the 'agree to disagree'. If a post is patently wrong, or contains erroneous information, there is no way to disagree without inferring that it's wrong. That poster will take offense that his information is incorrect, or needs to be amended. In doing that the poster returns to the thread to argue his point. The choice then is to just let the posters argument stand without contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrbrown View Post
Simple solution is if you know you offend people by always quoting them stop or at the least slow it down some. If you are the person getting quoted look to see why and think if it was another member doing it would it bother me as much. I'm thinking not but either way a simple post that we will have to agree to disagree shows that you've made an effort and will either be a flag for the mods to see it or a trigger for the one quoting you to let them know hey enough is enough.

Then the mods can get a better picture of things if it's even needed.
Quoting isolates who said what. In a thread with many posts it doesn't leave any doubts as to what was said...either good or bad. In just replying without quoting, a disagreeable reply gets countered by the poster realizing it was in reference to his post. I'm all for the agree to disagree theory, but, that might be too easy for those that take offense at someone that disagrees with them.





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post #19 of 23 Old 04-25-2014, 09:21 AM
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As I said in my post, Richard, the solution is to report the post and then go on to ignoring the childish behavior. I'm guilty of baiting people and being baited by people occasionally. It happens. It shouldn't be the norm, though, as you said.

I agree with you C'man about the quoting. It makes things much more clear, especially in a thread that sees a lot of action. I think the best solution if someone is patently wrong is to simply provide outside evidence of such that isn't based in opinion. Once you have provided such evidence, though, move on to the "ignore" portion mentioned above. That said, it's pretty rare we see things that are so one-sided with respect to woodworking. Perhaps saying "it's perfectly safe to run a tablesaw without a blade-guard" might be easily refuted (even though that's the way I run mine) but rarely is there only one way to do something right.
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post #20 of 23 Old 04-25-2014, 12:06 PM
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In the sequel to Lord of the Flies the survivors are rescued as adults, and the first thing they do in their new lives is start an online forum to carry on where they left off.
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